On Historical Reliability of the Gospels

Posted on by Ark

Just suppose ….

Imagine if you will that the gospels as we have them today are historically reliable as is the claim from certain Christian quarters.

And when I say reliable I mean top to bottom irrefutable fact. To further clarify, this would mean all characters and events mentioned in Matthew Mark, Luke and John were real.

Now, many of my visitors were former die hard Christians – believers to the core. There are even a few visitors who still are! However, it is not to the latter few that I am writing this.

So, my question is: If all of the above gospel claims were true right down to the last nitty gritty detail would you worship the Christian god, Yahweh/Jesus?

Ark

101 thoughts on “On Historical Reliability of the Gospels”

  4. ‘Worship’ has such an shmoozy tone to it. I thought you weren’t biting on this topic the other day? Would you, Ark, the Aten worship Jesus if it were all true?
    Unfortunately the Bible contains claims, and we know how bias and unreliable claims are—like trump won the election.
    If any of it were true you wouldn’t need faith, and faith is the great Koan, a spiritual barrier or riddle that refuses liberation of the mind.
    If it were all true I would not worship Jesus. There are other truths that are more appealing.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

      1. Not all of it is smoozy. Some of it is quite pompous. I would also have to ask, which version of all of the truth would you have to believe? Who’s authority would you have to accept, Jehovah’s Witness? Everyone knows they have the ultimate truth

        Like

        Reply

  5. Worship? I don’t think so. If every detail were 100% true, including the parts that contradict each other, then we still have a sloppy mess of an account, left to us by a moral monster who couldn’t be arsed to do a proper job of communicating his message to us. “Bow to me, kiss my ass forever, or I set your ghost on fire after you die?” Yeah, I’ll pass.

    Liked by 3 people

    Reply

    2. U.D.: Have you ever run across Philip at The Curmudgeon. I think you might appreciate his BAD THEOLOGY periodic feature!

      http://thecurmudgeonly.blogspot.com/2021/01/bad-theology.html

      Rather than sending His messenger straight to the king, God has Elijah perch on a hilltop and burns a hundred and two men to death because their captains neglect to grovel when asking him to come down. It was no doubt the memory of such brutal, ostentatious and vindictive displays of power which caused a later generation to see Elijah’s reincarnation in Jesus of Nazareth

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

  6. Naw. I’m a Muslim trough ‘n through. Why, you ask? Well, let me tellz ya! Cause right smack dab in the Quran it says, “This book is NOT to be doubted!” I mean, COME ON!!!!! WTF else does ya need?! $Allahu Akbar$

    Liked by 5 people

    Reply

    1. Hey john/ since I wasn’t invited as a commenter/ I’ll not engage/ other than to suggest you draft your own post regarding the ‘faulty Jewish cosmogony.’

      No hearsay. No second hand info: but what you have witnessed re the alleged weaknesses of the text. Write a post proving YOU have seen the earth move inch. Prove that Burj Kalifa is not threatened by ‘a spinning foundation.’

      Prove that waterfalls and still lakes bounce around at speeds no one can fathom. Prove the text as it is ad being incorrect.

      I await and will surely visit to deconstruct such nonsense.

      (Sorry ark fir the intrusion)

      Like

      Reply

  8. I’m pretty sure well over 99% of Christians don’t qualify to follow Jesus because they aren’t of the 12 tribes of Israel. That’s probably why they don’t follow the bible in the first place.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. Well, we all know (Don’t we?) the Christianity Christians follow is Pauline – the type you find in the gospels – so if these were on the nose as it were would any former Christian (You?) give it another go?

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. No, my disbelief in Christianity has nothing to do with the divide between the gospels and the Pauline writings. I have blogged about that specific thing, but my disbelief comes from the total lack of evidence.

        Asking me if I would try Christianity again is like asking me to believe in Santa Claus again, after years of being Santa for my own kids.

        Liked by 4 people

        Reply

        1. I understand., This is why I posed the question: if it turned out that the gospels were 100% true/ historically reliable (avec demonstrable evidence). Right down to Mary’s no-sperm-needed- pregnancy to the last nail in Jesus’ wrist, Joe of Arimathea & Nicodemus and the hole in the ground, to the ”Beam-me-up- Yahweh” moment.
          How would you feel then?

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. Ah, got it. I still am not sure. Not only am I not Israeli, but which gospel? In Mark and John, Jesus is just a dude that get’s baptized and becomes the leader. In Matthew and Luke he is born of a virgin and is literally god’s son. So are we to follow “GOD” or Jesus? Jesus has an underhanded way of degrading Mosaic Law, which is supposedly granted by god. So if Jesus is just a dude, we go with Mosaic. If Jesus is god incarnate, we go with Jesus. Both can be “true” depending on which gospel you read.

            Liked by 4 people

  9. I pretty much assumed the historical reliability of the gospels. Yet, after study, I left Christianity. I left because the gospels did not seem to actually support the theology.

    So now that I know the gospels are not reliable, does that mean that I should go back to being Christian? (Ok, not intended as a serious question).

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  10. Every written word true and factual? Wow that’s a mind bender. For a start the course of history would have altered so much I doubt we would even be here. Just think there would be no other religions, I mean if it was 100% fact you would be pretty dumb NOT worshiping god/jesus/the holy ghost or whatever he likes to call himself as your arse will be 100% toast if the words are true. Just think of all the wars that wouldn’t have happened, all the science that wouldn’t be needed, we just spend the whole day on our knees hoping for a happy ending (bit like waiting for santa and hoping we’re not on the naughty list).
    I can see why people say that they wouldn’t worship him as we are thinking of how we live now but if it was all true we all would be as soon as we could talk, unless you fancy a (very) warm retirement.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

  11. Well, just to chime in here if I may.. I can honestly say that if I had the same view of things as many folks sharing across the internet..I wouldn’t be open to the creator either. Who would want to know someone who is seen as a dictatorial monster looking to rob us of creativity or all joy? Hey, I would be on the hunt for “credible evidence” the same way a hen is hoping to cross paths with Mr. Fox. Just sayin. 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. So, if the bible was 100% truthful (historically reliable – as presented) you are saying you would deconvert?
      Am I misreading something here?

      Like

      Reply

      1. Ark, if I thought God was truly wanting people to do things like bash baby’s heads against rocks, of course I would not follow Him. As I’ve shared, I’m just not a fundamentalist Christian and don’t take ahold of Scripture in the same way.

        Like

        Reply

        1. So you would be a Cherry Picker type Christian in this case, yes?
          How about all the words credited to Jesus in the Gospels?
          How do you feel about these?
          Are you 100% okay with His words?

          Like

          Reply

          1. Ark, hand me that fruit basket.LOL You know that it’s more nuanced and thoughtful than that, though? Right? 😊.

            Like

          2. Is it? How do know which parts are for real and which are not?

            Do you accept the historicity of the Exodus for example?
            How about the feeding of the five thousand?

            Liked by 1 person

          3. Of course, Ark, I don’t feel every word attributed to Jesus is hundred percent historically reliable. I studied in a more progressive seminary after all. And, the interpretation of some of His teaching can be in dispute. But, Ark, I’m persuaded that we do have the core and essence of the teaching of Christ. In other words, I don’t feel like folks were simply making it all up as they went along. For me, it’s enough to trust and commit my life to Him. I have no regrets, Ark.

            Like

          4. There is a scholarly position that suggests up to 80% were not spoken by Jesus, but placed in his mouth by the gospel writers, whoever they were.
            Does it not concern you that some of the
            most profound sayings might have literally been made up, that they are the equivalent to wrapping speech marks around something Harry Potter ”said”?

            Like

          5. I would not agree with such a high percentage based in my studies, Ark. But we are not going to resolve this here. In any case, based on most of the comments made here, does it truly make a difference? It hardly seems worthwhile having the discussion, except as a purely academic exercise I suppose. Ark, if someone’s heart and mind are not open or wanting in any sense to know God, none of this will matter. No evidence will ever suffice.

            Liked by 1 person

          6. By the same token, Becky, when someone’s mind is not open to evidence and reasoning beyond what Christianity teaches, any attempts to demonstrate its weaknesses and errors will not be accepted.

            I will credit you for being more open to discussion, but the fact remains that you have been “persuaded” of the many claims that Paul put forth in his plea to the Gentiles. Which prompts a question — how much have you read/studied on the methods Paul used to convince the Gentiles of Yeshua’s so-called purpose?

            Liked by 2 people

          8. Even if we are talking about 50% this means that, half of what he is claimed to have said is bogus. false, a complete and utter lie.
            If this is the case and coupled with the other parts of the gospels (and the Old Testament) we know are interpolation (forgery) – long ending of gMark, half of Paul’s epistles for example, then much of what is written in the gospels is all effectively ”make believe”. Therefore, how on earth would one ever come to ”know God”. How do you explain this mish-mash to a child without having to lie yourself?
            This would be like handing a child a history book of the world, informing the child that a fair percentage of what is written is simply fiction, but, that’s okay as: ”You can choose what you want to believe as factual and true and when you grow up you can become a history teacher and teach what you learned as fact.”

            Would you be really happy if this was you? Or worse, your child? Honestly?

            Liked by 1 person

  12. The concept of worship is one of the most pernicious of all time. If you adopt a worship mentality, you give away any power you might have by acknowledging that the being worshiped is, as Monty Python put it in “The Meaning of Life,” “Oh so powerful …” And this is what it is designed to do, create an axis from the incredibly good entity, aka god, and you, the lowly worm that you are. The priests then get to insert themselves as intermediaries and voila, they are automatically in a position to lord it over you.

    Step One Establish a relationship of which you are the ass end. Step Two Claim to be an intercessionary or intermediary in that relationship … Voila! Instant royalty. It’s a power grab, mate. Don’t fall for it.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    2. Nan, I would say that there is a different emphasis in the way Paul presents in the epistles. He is also addressing issues in the churches that have come up. But, I would not agree that Paul is presenting a whole different religion. I’m able to see connection and commonality between the synoptics and certain ideas and concepts presented through the Pauline epistles. But, how are you looking at all this? What are your ideas? Or maybe I’ve missed the mark here and this isn’t what you’re thinking about.

      Like

      Reply

      1. If you’re familiar at all with how the Gentiles “worshipped” during bible times, you would be aware that they would NOT see Yeshua as a “savior.”

        You mention the churches — keep in mind, the “churches” were made up of Gentiles, not Jews. A smattering of the latter did “join in” as time progressed, but the initial congregations were made up of Gentiles.

        You see the “connection and commonality between the synoptics” because they were written AFTER Paul had convinced a segment of the Jewish people that Yeshua was the long-awaited Messiah.

        Essentially, there is NO connection between between how the Hebrew people overall viewed Jesus and how he was presented to the Gentiles.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

        1. Nan, I don’t feel that Jesus was what either the Jewish people or the Gentiles would have expected.

          Like

          Reply

    3. Ark, people in the main stream of the church just think differently. Our faith is more grounded in the overall churches witness of the resurrection. You know people can debate over stuff like whether Noah actually floated a big boat or the ending of Mark and it doesn’t really impact our desire to know God or our faith in Jesus Christ. But, folks who come from more fundamentalist backgrounds find these issues to be a much bigger deal because their faith in Jesus Christ is actually tied to the inerrancy of the whole Bible. Anyway Ark, there you have it. 😊 Leaving for now. Take care.

      Like

      Reply

      1. If you have the desire to ”Know God” , then without the bible how would you even have an inkling?

        As large swathes of the bible are nothing but myth or fiction /forgery then the ”Word of God” has obviously been corrupted.
        How much of the bible are you prepared to effectively disregard in the pursuit of ”knowing God” when the text you are trying to find him through is largely corrupt?

        Like

        Reply

  13. For me worship is a choice and a natural response to the love and grace of God. I would not see this as servile or schmoozy in some way. I think it is more for our benefit than God’s.

    Like

    Reply

    1. Of course you would consider it in this manner. After all, failure to do so means you will be spending an eternity being tortured in the Lake of Fire. Hell is the ”Dark Side” of the coin that the pushers don’t always like to discuss in open, genteel company … and especially not in front of the kids, right?
      Oh … wait a moment…
      Love is, right?

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

        1. But it is part of the deal, nevertheless, and has been since your religion was invented. Ask any deconvert here, if you have the gall.
          Within the Christian world there is a plethora of ‘Believers”, past and present current and ex who were raised on the notion they were born evil, sinful, broken and without any chance of redemption unless they embraced these facts and begged for forgiveness from your loving god. the creator Yahweh/Jesus and are often reminded he … oops sorry He committed numerous acts of genocide as per the bible.
          So these kids all knew perfectly well what happened in the past to naughty people.
          Therefore, failure to comply meant Hell. No second chance, no remission.
          Tell me what part of this speaks of a ”loving god”, Becky?

          Liked by 1 person

          Reply

          1. The reality and implications of the incarnation, Ark. That says it all to me. For me, the essence of Hell is just separation from God and all that involves. I think it’s an aspect of God’s love that He doesn’t simply force us into His life and Kingdom against our will. Hell is entirely self chosen. It is all so much deeper than because someone doesn’t think a certain way or held to a wrong opinion. If you have the chance, read CS Lewis “The Great Divorce.”. It’s an allegory of Heaven and Hell. I feel like it’s definitely applicable to the thread and to our discussion. Ark can someone really know God simply through fear and blind indoctrination?. I think any sensitive, thinking person has to grow beyond this in their faith, or you’re right they will eventually join the ranks of the “deconverted “. It’s very understandable to me.

            Like

          2. A choice between worship unreservedly, and torment for eternity is hardly the Hallmark of a loving ‘parent’ wouldn’t you say? As for Hell being self-chosen, this is somewhat of a sick approach and smacks of indoctrination. The individual is then held emotionally captive – I’m sure you have heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? This appears to be a similar scenario.
            After all, your loving parent has already demonstrated His bona fides – exterminating all life on the planet save for a floating zoo of animals and a soon to be incestuous family.
            I will also remind you of this:
            ”I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

            The Word of God, yes?

            So, do you consider this is a sign of a loving parent or a monster?

            Liked by 2 people

          3. Plus, given that GOD MADE US THIS WAY, who is to blame for our fallen, sinful state? Everything happens according to his living, ineffable will. Including the Holocaust and the now (thanks to climate change) annual “Hundred Year” hurricanes.

            “Free Will” is an utterly nonsensical concept in the case of an omni-deity. As an Elizabethan dandy put it: Created Sick, Commanded to be Well.

            Liked by 1 person

      1. I can’t believe I have to explain myself!

        So what is because if I’m not Jewish, the credibility of the gospels actually hold no connection to me. As you yourself said (and I have attested to in my book), it was Paul who manipulated the story into something the gentiles would accept … but even he was Jewish so we’re sorta’ back to where we started, yes?

        IOW, the irrefutability actually carries no weight except to those who have been brainwashed convinced that it’s all “for real.”

        Liked by 4 people

        Reply

  15. Shouldn’t we all still be Jewish, if we’re descended — through incest — from Levantine Semites just a few scant thousand years ago? Talk about hyper- evolution!

    But how could the Gospels ever be “historically reliable”, anyway, when they contain miracles? We know the biblical miracles can’t take place — the laws of physics don’t allow for it.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    1. I didn’t have a circumcision. Does this count as a miracle? In fact, do I still number among the elect, the chosen ones? Can I still be in God’s Club?

      Like

      Reply

      2. “I didn’t have a circumcision.”

        It’s not too late, you know! Just bite the bullet, and get it done, already! I can hook you up with a mohel — Solly Silverstein. He’s also the local butcher.

        Honest, you won’t feel a thing. Ever again, down there.

        Liked by 1 person

        Reply

  16. This is one of those damned if you do and damned if you don’t questions. I mean I still wouldn’t wanna worship him but Hell can’t be too nice either. I don’t feel like singing his praises in Heaven for ever either. The Bible is pretty vague on Heaven and Hell though, so maybe I’ll take the Hell option? Alternatively, I could do the bare minimum, live like an asshole and still get into Heaven because I believe in Jebus and asked him into my heart 😀.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

    2. It is a bit of a conundrumumum ..num, isn’t it?
      As you note, one could give the Big Dog a nod of recognition: ”Yup, you’re the One and Only, JC. The Man. No args from moi! Er … now what happens, JC?”

      And then one of the staff hands you a colour brochure with details of Heaven and you think:
      ”Nah …. sounds boring as shit! I’d rather stay here and haunt all those faux Christians like Branyan, Robertson, Mel and Lee.”

      What’s JC going to say. ”No, you have to go to heaven , or Hell! It’s the RULES!”

      ”But, er ‘scuse me God, whatever happened to freewill?”

      Liked by 2 people

      Reply

      1. Haha exactly. Well if I could pick a third option which involved staying on earth as a ghost then that would be preferable. It would get a little boring after 1000 years or so but it’s still better than the alternatives!

        Like

        Reply

  17. Basen, I think we’re getting confused in the thread. If you’re talking to me, I wasn’t responding to your comment, but to Nan’s. I’m not a Calvinist. I actually attend a mainline Lutheran church where people hold to some diversity of views. I’ve also been involved with the Episcopalians. I’m very ecumenical. 🙂

    Like

    Reply

  18. Ark: “Ark 12 Jan 2021 at 19:52
    A choice between worship unreservedly, and torment for eternity is hardly the Hallmark of a loving ‘parent’ wouldn’t you say? As for Hell being self-chosen, this is somewhat of a sick approach and smacks of indoctrination. The individual is then held emotionally captive – I’m sure you have heard of the Stockholm Syndrome? This appears to be a similar scenario.
    After all, your loving parent has already demonstrated His bona fides – exterminating all life on the planet save for a floating zoo of animals and a soon to be incestuous family.
    I will also remind you of this:
    ”I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

    The Word of God, yes?

    So, do you consider this is a sign of a loving parent or a monster?”

    Zoe: I took an Advil for my headache. :/

    Thank you Ark. As I re-read your comment this morning, I see it as between “unconditional love” unreservedly and “conditional love” for eternity. It is an “either” or an “or.” It is a black and white proposition. No nuance unless one choses their “free-will” to create the nuance necessary to cope with the existential question. One is either loved or not loved. One either meets the conditions or does not. Nuancing it just makes it easier to live out one’s natural life not really knowing if they’ve met the conditions of “love.” Nuancing becomes its own legalistic tool. Nuancing becomes ones balm in Gilead.

    One Advil was not enough.

    Liked by 2 people

    Reply

  19. Zoe, at one time, I leaned more toward universalism. And, I still think that we can’t put any measure on the love and mercy of God. It’s certainly not His intention for anyone to be separated from Him at all. I mean that’s part of what the incarnation is all about. It’s an expression of God’s love and healing in our lives and toward the entire world.

    But, as I thought about this all even more deeply…Well, what about “free will?” It’s huge. If people don’t want God even if they knew He was truly there??

    Will that intention not carry through all eternity? For me, the essence of Hell is just separation from God, and how that can play out in our lives.

    I’m not viewing this as something like a vindictive and angry God throwing people into Hell because they all couldn’t believe in a certain way or made a mistake. It seems to me much, much deeper than that by far. In the end, I think it is truly and willfully self-chosen. The torment is separation from God and all that implies.

    I don’t feel people are going to be literally roasting over some kind of firepit..being poked by demons with pitchforks.

    I also don’t think I’m the one to judge anyone’s spiritual state at all. Who knows where people might be at toward the end of their lives. Someone like C.S. Lewis seemed to think there are even choices available to us after death. I don’t know.

    But, as far as I’m concerned, “I want to be in” that number”when the saint go marchin in.” But, my desire is out of love, wanting to know Him, wanting to be part of His kingdom which includes making a difference in the here and now.

    In a sense, our eternity has already begun in the present. We are all on the road toward Heaven or Hell.

    And, our thinking and choices in life become even more set as the years go by.

    But, I certainly think I need to be focusing on my path before supposing I can judge and know the heart and mind of someone else or what God might be doing in their lives.

    In the end, anyone who truly wants God will have Him and with that every good thing. My statement of faith is that we can trust Him.

    Like

    Reply

    1. I don’t feel people are going to be literally roasting over some kind of firepit..being poked by demons with pitchforks.

      Sorry … we are stone cold atheists over here and don’t do ”feelings.”
      Therefore, if you do not have evidence that this scenario will not take place I strongly suggest you do not put all your eggs in one basket.
      Okay, un oeuf is un oeuf.
      🙂

      Like

      Reply

      1. I can’t get into that heavy metal stuff Brian. Celtic hymns and folk music are more my cup of tea. 😊

        Like

        Reply

          1. I saw Celtic dancers once and I really liked it. I just love the sound of the music. I’m really drawn toward Celtic expressions of Christianity too. I think the connection with the natural world really speaks to me. What about you, Nan?

            Like

          3. @ Becky
            I always thought the Celts were drawn towards Druids and their religion? Until that is they were effectively wiped out courtesy of orders from Tiberius?
            As the Irish are claimed to have Celtic roots you may like this …

            Like

          1. Irafas nifrus a no og lla s’tel
            That sounds like Heavy Metal to moi. Maybe Seether or something similar?

            Like

    3. Becky: Becky 14 Jan 2021 at 16:09

      “Zoe, at one time, I leaned more toward universalism.”

      Zoe: Yes I know. Remember, I’ve been reading your opinion pieces for over ten years now.

      Becky: “And, I still think that we can’t put any measure on the love and mercy of God.”

      Zoe: I think you can measure your God’s love and mercy by reading the stories in your Bible.

      Becky: “It’s certainly not His intention for anyone to be separated from Him at all.”

      Zoe: Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent.

      Becky: “I mean that’s part of what the incarnation is all about.”

      Zoe: Oops. Not Omniscient, Omnipresent, Omnipotent

      Becky: “It’s an expression of God’s love and healing in our lives and toward the entire world.”

      Zoe: It’s an expression of your God’s story of trying to save Himself.

      Becky: “But, as I thought about this all even more deeply…”

      Zoe: I’m just never going to get as deep as you Becky.

      Becky: “Well, what about “free will?”

      Zoe: What about it?

      Becky: “It’s huge.”

      Zoe: That’s what Eve found out when naked Adam approached her after she ate the apple.

      Becky: “If people don’t want God even if they knew He was truly there??”

      Zoe: If God (knowing his plan was a disaster) and His peeps were going to suffer, and in hindsight maybe He didn’t want them at all, why’d He bother? Entertainment? Experiment? Nothing else better to do as He transversed the vast expanse of galaxies? Free-will?

      Becky: “Will that intention not carry through all eternity?”

      Zoe: Apparently. Your God’s free-will to do as He pleases appears to have “all eternity” consequences. Yup. For sure. It’s all there in your Bible.

      Becky: “For me, the essence of Hell is just separation from God, and how that can play out in our lives.”

      Zoe: Oh, so just this side of eternity then?

      Becky: “I’m not viewing this as something like a vindictive and angry God throwing people into Hell because they all couldn’t believe in a certain way or made a mistake.”

      Zoe: Yes, this has been what you’ve said for over ten years now. You’ve consistently let your God off the hook all along.

      Becky: “It seems to me much, much deeper than that by far.”

      Zoe: I intuit that you excel at going to deepness beyond my capabilities.

      Becky: “In the end, I think it is truly and willfully self-chosen.”

      Zoe: My fault.

      Becky: “The torment is separation from God and all that implies.”

      Zoe: Including the after-life? You know. All of eternity?

      Becky: “I don’t feel people are going to be literally roasting over some kind of firepit..being poked by demons with pitchforks.”

      Zoe: That statement is to help you feel better and to show you aren’t “one of those Christians . . . heaven forbid.” You don’t have to defend your feelings to me. I too don’t believe it either.

      Becky: “I also don’t think I’m the one to judge anyone’s spiritual state at all.”

      Zoe: I intuit that this is a true statement for you.

      Becky: “Who knows where people might be at toward the end of their lives.”

      Zoe: Such a safe, simple way of letting go of reality and moving forward despite the truth that not all will be where you hope they will be “toward the end of their lives.” After all, free-will.

      Becky: “Someone like C.S. Lewis seemed to think there are even choices available to us after death.”

      Zoe: So what? C.S. didn’t write the Bible did he? Maybe he believed in Purgatory? Is a type of Purgatory free-will too or is it a whole new ball of wax in the after-life? Obviously he believes the after-life exists.

      Becky: “I don’t know.”

      Zoe: Indeed.

      Becky: “But, as far as I’m concerned, “I want to be in” that number”when the saint go marchin in.””

      Zoe: Yes. I can understand this. I was there at one time too. But alas, my gdffw got in my way . . . sinner that I am.

      Becky: “But, my desire is out of love, wanting to know Him, wanting to be part of His kingdom which includes making a difference in the here and now.”

      Zoe: And in the after-life.

      Becky: “In a sense, our eternity has already begun in the present. We are all on the road toward Heaven or Hell.”

      Zoe: Yup. There it is. Hell. Despite all your deepers and intuits and senses and discernments and Lewis’ you are back to the start though you have apologetically tried to lead otherwise . . . “Heaven or Hell.” Black and white. Either & Or.

      Becky: “And, our thinking and choices in life become even more set as the years go by.”

      Zoe: Your phrasing here reminds me of the warnings and threats of my former fundamentalist practitioners. Careful little children of the world. Don’t delay. As well as, get them while they are young cause it all gets cemented the older they get. Yes, yes I know you didn’t mean it that way. I just find it funny how you sprinkle your evangelistic hope with nuance here and nuance there but ultimately continue though perhaps unaware, just how unmoveable you are, while pointing out, ‘hey who knows though, right . . . maybe that last breath will call to your God and if not, well maybe C.S. had it right and we can negotiate with your God later.’

      Becky: “But, I certainly think I need to be focusing on my path before supposing I can judge and know the heart and mind of someone else or what God might be doing in their lives.”

      Zoe: I suppose that’s exactly why you are here, tending to your path. I don’t think your God as I understand your God is doing anything in other people’s lives. After all, free-will.

      Becky: “In the end, anyone who truly wants God will have Him and with that every good thing.”

      Zoe: You have preached well Becky. Truly a fundamentalist statement. And far more judgemental than you give yourself credit for.

      Becky: “My statement of faith is that we can trust Him.”

      Zoe: And I believe you.

      Like

      Reply

  20. I understand, Ark. Hey, thanks for giving me the opportunity to comment and for hearing my thoughts.

    Pax.

    Like

    Reply

  22. Zoe has it been ten years?? Time flies by. We have had quite the conversations, that’s for sure. OMG. How long has it been since Bruce banned me from his blog? 🙂 I so much hope that he will be ok. I know there are tons of health problems.

    I want to say, Zoe, that your compassion and sincerity have always come through to me. In other circumstances, we could have been good friends. In a real way, at least from my perspective, we are. Once you asked me if I thought you were going to Hell. I didn’t think it then and I don’t think it now. Yes, from my perspective, we can trust Him. Hope that you and your family are well and safe. It’s a difficult time. Every blessing. Take care.

    Want to share this Celtic artist with you and everyone here.

    Liked by 1 person

    Reply

    1. Becky: “Once you asked me if I thought you were going to Hell. I didn’t think it then and I don’t think it now.”

      Zoe: Of course I’m not going to hell. It doesn’t exist.

      Liked by 3 people

      Reply

Leave a comment