I wonder ….

Posted on by Ark

…if, as kids, we were each given a KJV bible as part of our school curriculum and told to read it …. ”there will be a test!”

would any of us have believed what we read or become Christians simply on the strength of being told we were reading the ‘Divine Word?’

Ark.

105 thoughts on “I wonder ….”

      2. Hey ark just out of curiosity, if evo is the end all- maybe animals were in fact the first to speak? And as an after thought of comedy, parrots still hand around. So what’s wrong with a talking snake, ass, or parrot??

        After all, that forked tongue may be a clue.

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        1. CS — there are a LOT of “what-ifs” in this world …

          One that I especially like is “what-if” CS is wrong about his flat earth belief? 😎

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          1. Hi nan, lots of things unclear. We focus on the ambiguous and deny what’s obvious. I keep asking, ark and anybody else:

            Write a post proving/ defending / using first hand knowledge and provabkl evidence, that mighty Everest is guilty of spinning…..

            Prove the earth moves. Do it. Write a post. I challenge you. All I hear is insults and zero proof. But back on task, Paul was a man’s man.

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        2. Engaging the abject stupidity you project would just make you look like that talking ass you refer to.
          I’ll pass, thanks all the same.

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          1. Ok Tks anyway ark/
            But someday you will consider your dearly held assumptions. Like bees and butterflies somehow being accused of not only moving in the air with wings, but also participating in a world that allegedly spins at insane speeds and directions no one has ever seen-

            No wonder you pass. I wouldn’t want to defend such monstrous absurdity either.

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        3. If ‘evo’ refers to evolution, my understanding that it is an ongoing process (that in itself may be evolving too). Perhaps ol’ God got lazy, and automated it?

          But naaaahhhh … He can’t be omniscient and do that … in this instance one cannot help but be drawn to that famous Disney cartoon where the (Mouse) apprentice magician sets oooodles of animated buckets into action and ends up flooding the place. Perhaps God, after all, is nothing more than a cartoon mouse?

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  2. Of course not! Why? Well, that’s easy! Because only the Quran is a True Holy Book. And how do I know this? That’s simply, too. It says, right in the friggin book, that “this book is not to be doubted!” I mean, COME ON!!!!! Mic drop, baby!!!!

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    1. Ooooooohhhhh … you little rebel, you!

      But here, on my authority (as an Atheist 1st Class) you have my full—entire—complete and never to be doubted permission to doubt.

      And, since mine is the more recent, it overrides that stuffy old bookish injunction … go get ’em, Tiger!.

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  3. Oh, there would be “teaching to the test!” What teacher would want to see a high failure rate on that topic?

    I would love to see the test! I can almost guarantee a lot of “Who is buried in Grant’s Tomb?” questions.

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  4. I think it would be meaningless without the explainers. Although Galaxy Quest is always a possibility, where believing the cast’s heroic on-screen dramas are historical documents of real-life adventures.

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  5. Funny thing is that they do (or at least used to) hand out Gideon bibles (NT + Psalms) in public schools, though I can’t recall if they were KJV or not. Some students took them home, but most of my classmates just threw them in the back of their desks where they remained unread for the remainder of the school year.

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    1. Ol’ Gideon got around a bit, didn’t he … I found one in a room in a Fiji hotel once as I was moving in—grabbed it and chucked it out the window. Bad move …
      Yes, huuuuuuge plate-glass window and immaculately clean; was shut.

      But: a miracle! Right before my eyes as the Goodly Bookly hit the window it (window, not book) stretched outwards instead of shattering—

      —and then fired the book back into the room.

      I didn’t know glass could do that … thank you Lord; and if you’re still in the mood for miracles can you please feed the starving and clothe the chilly? Ta, very much~!

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  6. Re the talking snake – at the age of 5 i remember picking up on that. However, much more memorable
    was the notion that “the Israelites” – were the chosen people. Of course being a smart ass I had to ask – “why them?” – “Why Israelites – why not us?”

    Of course our dear old teacher had probably never come across such a curious mind for she did not know what to say apart from well – “Who are you to question god’s choice” and didn’t the class laugh at me. Job done. That’s how religion works folks.

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        1. There is a rumour that, back in the day, Durex would never have become what it was and would have gone out of business if it weren’t for the Catholic Church secretly buying loads of shares in Reckitt.
          What do I know, right? 🙂
          Complaints of the season, Mister Gordon!
          Nice of you to show your beatific countenance on my humble blog once again!
          Hope you are healthy and stay that way.

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    1. I agree with Liberated. Straight reading … perhaps.

      But based on most school teachings, there would have been “reading assignments” with “discussion” at the end of each one. So there’s little doubt indoctrination would come into play.

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      1. I guess in Ark’s scenario here he didn’t specify who was facilitating the classes. Here I am assuming the teachers might not be religious but are forced to teach it. In an ideal scenario the content is presented and the kids make up their own minds, but avoiding some indoctrination would be difficult you’re right. I wouldn’t wish this upon anyone though.

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    2. The Bible actually, IS the indoctrination part. But here’s where it gets self-destructive, it should never (R) NEVER be presented to intelligent minds, not if it is intended to persuade or convert.

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      1. True, I wouldn’t want the Bible to be taught anywhere. I was just making an assumption that if the Bible were taught in schools it would be without religious bias, ideally like every other subject is. Content is presented but kids make up their own minds to some extent.

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        1. Too much, too soon. Bible is actually deeper than it looks and is fully intended to suck people in; designed and created to do just that.
          Even a lot of ‘college educated’ folks get caught; products of their times. Little kids won’t have a chance …

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          1. And many of these same religious folk get all bent out of shape at Harry Potter novels!
            Alchemy, wizards, magic.
            JK Rowling – Satan’s Mistress?
            SMH
            What a wunch of bankers!

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        1. You have a point … to a degree. Due to its nature, the Bible has been given “special attention” over the years to the extent that it is no longer viewed from a neutral point of view.

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          1. This might be the case in certain countries, but in others where religion is an obliged subject, like in West Europe, openness of mind of the teacher and self thinking of the students is expected and openness for debate shall always be given in the classes of mixed religious groups.

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        2. This is an old blog post so I’m not sure how many people are going to revisit a post from 2 years ago. It is already legal to teach about the Bible in America public schools with some important caveats:

          “The Bible may be taught in a school, but only for its historical, cultural or literary value and never in a devotional, celebratory or doctrinal manner, or in such a way that encourages acceptance of the Bible as a religious document.”

          Basically you can teach about religion and the Bible from a secular viewpoint, but you can’t endorse or teach religious doctrines. Good teachers and educators will generally do this.

          From ADL article on Religion on the Classroom.

          https://www.adl.org/resources/tools-and-strategies/religion-curriculum

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          2. Every sensitive and well thinking person shall leave his students to think freely and shall teach about all the different religious books, be it from Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity or Islam from a neutral standpoint or from a secular viewpoint, without ever endorsing or teaching religious doctrines. that last point is where it is going totally wrong in the United States of America, where we can find very conservative evangelicals even wanting to keep their children away from public schools to teach them creationism and other doctrinal ideas.

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        3. Not if he/she/it has been religiously (ouch) programmed to filter out Reality and just go with the flow.
          I think it was Jesuits who said “Give me a boy from the age of seven and he’ll be useless for anything else after that” (words to that effect).

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          1. I do agree that in Catholic schools the possibility to indoctrinate is more available.

            In Belgium we also notice that certain teachers of Catholicism wrongly say the cross is the symbol of Christianity or that Christmas is the most import holy day of Christians.

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  8. At the very least, whether one believed the contents, upon ones reading- one would acquire the most excellent of vocabularies- not found in any one source such as the 1611.

    Not even a close competitor. Of course. As it is, and as it should be.

    There is a natural cadence beginning with 1.1- words easy to intreat- following through grammar, elementary, high school, and finally college level.

    Studies have been done (find them) citing inmates ie, who while having read -(faith aside) have demonstrated diction skills envious of the moronic newscasters who cannot pronounce ‘familiar’ without invoking g ‘fur.’

    Good vocabulary produces good speech.

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    1. Frankly I prefer ol’ Willie Spokeshave to the Burble. And that’s sort of the same lingo, no? Or Tennyson. Or whoever wrote such lines as—

      God knows, ’twere better to be
      Deep pillowed in silk and scented down
      Where love throbs out in blissful sleep
      Pulse nigh to pulse and breath to breath
      And hushed awakenings are dear ….

      Probably misquoted but it’s been a loooong time; however the sentiments are there.

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      1. Surely there are tons of literary works with great poetry and words. I am narrowing down to ONE source the value of the 1611 above and beyond.

        Remember I said ‘vocabulary.’ There are references to commerce such as ‘trust’ and ‘deposits.’ There are the gem references to topaz, beryl, jacinth, chalcedony. Agricultural references abound, as do legal words, my favorite is ‘firmament.’

        I could bore you with references, all terns we use today, found uniquely I scripture. I hope cobsoledreader sees this and agrees.

        NO other source book contains such a gold mine of communicative wealth. Bards are fine but no comparison.

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          1. Hmm. Yet we are more familiar with everyday expressions from 1611 and use them daily, such as ‘my brothers keeper’ ‘eye for an eye,’ ‘drop in the bucket,’ ‘ pisseth against the wall, ‘he washed his hands,’ etc etc-

            Personally, I do not commit Shakes to memory, whether intentional or accidental- but I would suggest that for over 400 yrs, no singular work has had more influence. But to each his own-

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          3. The beautiful language and poetry. The stories contain drama and tragedy that can match some of the best tragedies of other stories of the Western Canon. The ironies contained in many stories and the multiplicity of meanings. The way the stories explore many facets of the human experience. I can read it again and again and always find something new, something I missed, some new aspects that I never noticed before. It’s economical style. Its influence on subsequent literature.

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          4. The beautiful language and poetry.

            Such as Hebrews 11:37?
            Wonder material and just the thing to read to the kiddies at bedtime.
            Or perhaps we could discuss the mayhem, murder, genocide, incest rape, misogyny?

            I suggest you are merely parroting the clichéd faux intellectual spiel dished up by those who want to allow the Bible to Pass GO?

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          5. If you don’t agree, then you don’t agree. I doubt anything I say will change your mind.

            Also, I find Hebrew 11:37 to be very strong writing. It is designed to elicit pity in the reader for the men suffering these afflictions on behalf of their faith. I like the reversal that happens at the beginning of Hebrew 11:38 where it’s the people who are persecuting and afflicting them that are unworthy.

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          6. It’s simply revolting violence. And if there was no ridiculous ‘faith’ then shit like this would not likely happen.
            One might as well suggest tales of the Aztec culture and their propensity to rip out the beating heart of thousands of victims to appease their God as “strong writing”.
            But those with any sort of religious sympathies always find an excuse to hand wave away such drivel as the Bible.
            *sigh* ’twas ever thus.

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          8. Compared to the Bible? And no one asserts this is fact or would dream of reading such tales to small kids either.

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          9. Ok. But you asked why I think the Bible is great literature, which implies we are talking about it as literature—not whether some people take its events as literal facts, which would mean we are no longer talking about it as literature anymore.

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          10. While there may be parts that some considerer to be ”great literature”, ( and I’ll venture this is purely a subjective point of view) taken as whole one would have to be desperate to consider it in this way.
            For example, Numbers, Deuteronomy and Leviticus focus on the Torah and unless one is a devout Jew there seems little if anything that would captivate the reader and leave them wide-eyed with wonder and wanting more of the same.
            To suggest the gospels are ”great literature” might make one think that one had been denied access to anything else to read.
            Much of the text is simply nonsense, poorly written and plagiarized to boot.
            Hardly what one would call a page-turner, unless one was somewhat indoctrinated to think otherwise?
            The Epistles hardly qualify as literature let alone demonstrate any sense of greatness like a Dickens, or even Fitzgerald or Blake,

            As for Revelations, merely rubbish fantasy.

            Perhaps you should be more specific when you claim the bible is ”great literature”?
            You are a professional librarian so you have the qualifications to lay out a decent case.

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          11. Bible, as literature? Why not?
            Noddy too is literature, as are the Stephanie Plum novels, and Treasure Island, and the Rubaiyat, and The Koran, and Hamlet (one of my very most favourites) and anything else. Actually, the Bible has it all from lust, murder, incest, and any form of depravity you might suggest. Recommended reading for infants? I’d say not …

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          13. Has to be good, it’s held the attention of many for a long time so it works well as popular literature—
            —but in any library I ever might run it would be filed in the ‘fiction’ section. (Bottom shelf where the tiny-tots can get to it until they can reach the Big Boy stuff.)

            There might be a few biters squawking that “It’s not fiction, dammit, it’s the bible truth!” To each his/her/its own …

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        2. Many may agree (or disagree) with your opinions related to the “grand” vocabulary of 1611. But the core point is that all those revered words carry little meaning to those who reject the “divine” source of that gold mine of communicative wealth.

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          2. It is certainly ‘up there’ when it comes to wonderful descriptions of murder, genocide, wanton slaughter, incest, cruelty, hatred and all those other terrific traits that are an absolute delight to read to the kiddies before bedtime.
            Hebrews 11: 37 comes to mind.

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          3. Tkx for this reference. It was an accurate accounting and telling of how the people of God were harassed. More proof of a life yet to be.

            John the headless baptist cones to mind as well.

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      2. Found it … was ‘Rendezvous with Death’ by Alan Seeger.
        I understand that he kept that rendezvous not long after he penned those lines, but I could well be mistaken.

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  9. Translated and rewritten in the sixteen hundreds, so of course the bibs from those times are written in what we might regard as a more poetic style. Certainly the modern translations lack something (they lack a whole heap, actually).

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  10. Peer-pressure or family-pressure (on descendants) does not in anyway equal universal truth, fact, or laws of physics… much less any supernatural corroborations. Hah! 😄

    Nor does theatrical, sensationalized peer-support (in church, mosques, or synagogues) for that matter!

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    2. Yep, indeedy, that’s the one.
      Frog? I had a frog brother-in-law once … ex French para, heir to a Champagnery, came to New Zealand and married my then wife’s sister. Set up his own methode champenoise in Marlborough province but I lost contact years ago; a great guy.

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      1. Quite a character. Some os ud Frogs do get around… Méthode Champenoise in All-Blacks’ land… Interesting. Thanks for the comment. Duly noted. (Though KJV does sound a tad like KGB?) Cheers.

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        1. They actually do make some dam’ good wine in NZ now; some clever chap discovered Marlborough province and it took off from there (earlier Dalmations and similar had been making plonk around Auckland; far too hot and humid).

          For a kiwi method champenoise you could track down a Daniel le Brun, but although Daniel established the vineyard and winery some clever manoeuvring on the part of bigger interests bought him out—now the poor bugger can’t even use his own name (in a wine context).

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          1. It’s a tough world. BUu as long as the wine is good… Cheers. 🍻 Hmm. No. Cupertino understood 🍺 (Automatic keyboard transformation) Let’s type bloody w.i.n.e 🍷 (There you go)

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  12. Would you become a Muslim on the strength of reading the Koran without someone persuading you it is the real word of a god?
    Would reading on voo doo make one an adherent?
    My submission is no.

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      1. Faith needs no test. Ya goddit, or yer ain’t; and in the end Big G knows anyway. As the famed guy said in one of the Christian squabbles/massacres “Kill ’em all! God will know His own!”

        With logic like that you can’t lose. And for God, win/win.

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  13. Reading the bible when I was a teen is pretty much what put me on the path to non belief. So, in that context I say, let them read it!

    Without the benefit of a preacher to talk away all of the inconsistent and downright execrable B.S.

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    1. Teach ’em the Law of Contradiction first. Then, with no further comment or guidance from us:

      LET ‘EM LOOSE !

      —and Devil take the hindmost … (good news, He will too. Trust me.)

      Sadly your average Christian nutcase doesn’t want debate … he wants unthinking victims.

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  14. Your last line is ABSOLUTELY the defining factor. Thing is, most people don’t read the bible on their own. It’s not until they are “encouraged” to do so by religious parents or as an adult, they become a sobbing convert in a Pentecostal church.

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    1. I’ve posted about this experience in the past, but a timely refresher:

      I was once told by a ‘charismatic’ Christian (nutter) that if I did but attend an open-air gathering starring the Australian import Reverend Clarke-Taylor (I think that was his name, memory fails) that I’d be touched by the Holy Spirit and converted. The scene was a minor crater of an extinct volcano (think natural amphitheatre) beginning at dusk, summer, in Auckland NZ.

      With a fully open mind I attended.
      Let’s cut to the chase, I was neither touched nor converted.

      That many folks were is a matter of history; but the whole thing was so brilliantly orchestrated that it was psychologically much much easier for folks to attend the recruiters than to remain outside the catchment during the hauling in of the nets.

      The scene was a minor crater of an extinct volcano (think amphitheatre) beginning at dusk, summer, in Auckland NZ.

      The centrepiece act was after the Rev had talked, spoken, revved up, raved, raged, and harangued … they called for volunteers. But wait, read on, it gets better (and to anyone with a hint of psychology, and theatre, more understandable).

      Dusk had faded enough that when a slender golden-haired nubile blonde young lady (clothed from head-to-foot in a flowing, clinging, ultra-feminine white robe) leading a child of each gender in each hand immediately after the call for volunteers … there was a predictable stampede.

      Of a curious nature I joined the herds to see what would happen. It was all brilliantly executed, each volunteer from the audience was personally issued a member of the church for one-on-one processing.
      Being honest myself I was quite quickly ejected through a side door to find my own way in near-darkness around to the front and back to my friends; instead I went back to the entrance of the processory and waited for them to come down and find me … which they did.
      I didn’t disillusion my friend and his missus at all—even though at one point in the hall I expected to be strong-armed but just went quietly to be ejected and never jostled my two minders or gave them any trouble at all, and they likewise (had they tried it might have been interesting).

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      1. Ha, this reminds me of a similar ‘crusade’ I went to as a kid. This was in Tauranga though. It went on for a few days in this stadium, they had all sorts of entertainment going on: I remember strongman, people doing bike stunts and some Pacific Island dances. Of course it was all a precursor to giving the good old gospel message. It was meant to be a massive event and churches were discussing beforehand how to deal with the supposed influx of new Christians that would result afterward. Of course the event ended up being forgotten about pretty quickly. Most people can see through the facade.

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  15. I think the gathering was called a Crusade, and may have been (pretty sure it was) advertised on a large scale in the big Auckland (city, and province) newspapers).
    All good clean fun (and fills the coffers for more such Good Works).

    I often wonder of the good reverend is still (a) with us, and (b) still recruiting, and (c) even still a Christian nutcase?

    Maybe God called him up to a Paradise of slim trim slender long-haired golden-blonde virgins? The mind boggles … and virginity is vastly overrated anyway.

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  18. Hah! Found it—

    Massacre at Béziers | Summary | Britannicahttps://www.britannica.com › … › The Middle Ages
    God will know his own,” when asked how the Crusaders should distinguish the heretics from true Christians—massacred almost the entire population of the city …

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  20. Having accepted Christ as my saviour originally as a 15yr old and immediately being encouraged to start my journey with a kjv scofield reference bible… I can honestly say that kids will in fact have no problem believing whatever the bible says/is described to say by others.

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    1. Saviour?
      Save you from what—
      —from the agonies and mayhem He Himself created (omnipotent) in the full knowledge (omniscient) of what was to come, for ever and ever, amen?
      Please … I hate to use this expression (and it’s a first on the web for me) — get a life.

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      1. He is a deconvert. Doesn’t blog any more.
        What you doing on my ancient posts?
        You’re as bad as me these days.
        Do a new post.
        And I thought you were going to post a few photos?
        Otherwise, how’s things with you and your better half?

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          2. Not all that well, but gives me more time to think, read, view, explore and fire the occasional shot at lunacy. Hope all well for you and yours, Ark?

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          3. I’m afraid to ask…
            We’re doing okay. Business ticking over and apart from usual gripes about our corrupt government nothing that bad to whinge about.

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        2. Dunno if I told you this before, but I’ve been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s. An act of God, no?
          I can hear a Heavenly snigger followed by the words “Hah! It took a while, but Godcha, Dog!”

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          2. Being perfectly honest, I haven’t noticed any difference.
            I think it’s because I see things some don’t, and have always had an inclination to “think outside the box”, and am a weird blend of optimist and fatalist, and many think I’m bat-brained anyway … no-one that knows me knows. (Spouse and family do, of course …)
            It came up actually as a result of an MRI followed by an interview with two doctors — if ever you get the chance for an MRI: leave town. Sheesh. As Billy Connolley might say, it’s an all-metal ‘full body condom’ in which you lie immobile while folks beat on the outside with sledgehammers. Being in control of my body (hah!) I refused the blindfol— oops, the tranquillisers; and lay immobile for about two hundred years until all was finished.
            And now ’tis bedtime, time to sleep, perchance to dream etc etc; and listen to Piaf ‘regretting rien’ (apologies to purists) in my mind.

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          3. I too am sorry to hear this, Argus. Your comments are gems … and I hope you will continue to entertain us for a goodly long time to come.

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        3. “…do a new post …”?
          Okay, shall work on it. Might be a bit depressing for some, so if I enter the vale of gloomacy, please pull me up short.
          In th meantime I’ll continue inventing words more apt for my purposes.
          (Actually, I think blogging is the best therapy right now).

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  21. Pingback: Taking a dog by the ears | From guestwriters

  22. I sit here sagely and make mental notes of all things I’d do differently if I were in power.
    Methinks they goof a wee bit here, but what does an old dog from the colonies know?

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  23. Quite some while ago I was invited to sit in with a discussion group in a guy’s home. It was really good to be with people who shared many of my own thoughts, ideas, and philosophies. This is how we progress, no? Noisy out there, must have a look—
    —from ye olde ‘Kings Arms’ pub; they unload those (steel?) beer kegs by dropping them from the back of a truck and rumbling them in on foot.
    (Damn this blasted Alzheimers … I’ve forgotten where I was going with this!)

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    1. Hey … I do that kind of thing all the time … and I don’t have Alzheimer’s. My brain just likes to go its own direction at times. (Of course, it probably doesn’t help that it’s been working hard for the past 80+ years.)

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    2. Hah! Now I remember. The topic for discussion was “How do I raise a kid’s self esteem?”.
      After the querent worked through ALL the usual platitudes it got to me. Folks leaned back expectantly …
      … I drew a looooong deep breath …
      … and said—
      “Set the kid a challenging task. Really challenging, but make it one that you know he/she/it is actually capable of achieving, with effort. And don’t help …”
      (SFX: insert looooong silence here, please.)
      And then simultaneously they all broke into a round of applause.
      It was hardly my own idea, military trainers have been doing exactly that for many generations …. and it still works.)

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