Why only Paul/Saul of Tarsus?

Posted on by Ark

I left a comment to Randy regarding Paul’s Road to Damascus  experience and thought it might be worth making a post of it to see what sort of responses it might draw, especially from any Christians readers.

 

Surely, appearing to everyone to convey a similar message would have removed all ambiguity and cut out the ‘middle man’, so to speak?

Just imagine it.

No need for churches and no need for Christianity and the 30,000 denomination/sects within Christianity. No bibles either, or at least not the fabricated nonsense we have been left with.

Islam would not have been established and Judaism would have likely been absorbed into the Body of Christ.
Hinduism would have disappeared as would all the other global religions.

If it worked for Paul it would have worked for everyone. Jesus/Yahweh is ‘God’ after all, yes?
Furthermore, free will would have been maintained as we would still have the choice to accept or reject.

It would most certainly have negated the need for all the ”workers” who went on to try to evangelize the world.

I’m presuming (you) we  are all aware enough of history to know what horrors ensued when Christians landed on ‘foreign’ shores, not to mention the multitude of internecine battles and wars, pogroms, crusades etc?

Think of all the millions upon millions of lives that would been spared over this time frame? No slavery either. No genocide of the Native Americans, no Holocaust.

Even from my atheist perspective this seems an infinitely better solution when compared to the nightmare scenarios that ensued over the next two millennia, don’t you agree?

 

Thoughts?

 

Ark

209 thoughts on “Why only Paul/Saul of Tarsus?”

    1. That is actually what happened ! It just was less evident during Paul’s lifetime.
      I think (whether for believer or atheist) a reading of the message of the N.T. would confirm this.

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  3. You bring up an excellent point Douglas ! I thought the same thing looking back in the Old testament starting with Exodus 20:19 going on to the story of the Golden Calf. Exodus 20:19 leaves little doubt the Children of Israel were scared shitless from the presence of God billowing from a cloud above a mountain. And yet when Moses didn’t return from the mountain they melted all their gold and made a golden calf to worship instead, in just 30 days. The story you mention or the story I just referenced would have compelled me to think this God character might actually be real. If God revealed himself to a few folks a few thousand years ago, it would only make sense that he do it now once and for all. I don’t think this is too much to ask.

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      1. Good to see you as well Douglas ! I trust you are enjoying good health. I am managing Covid this week after having symptoms and testing positive on Wednesday. I was vaccinated and it did reduce my symptoms. Life is good !

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  4. Surely, appearing to everyone to convey a similar message would have removed all ambiguity and cut out the ‘middle man’, so to speak?

    Spot. On.

    (but it still raises the problem of why then and not way, way, way earlier)

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    3. JZ: The middle man ain’t gonna like You, Pal~!

      But don’t fret, God won’t mind—He (they tell me) is a loving god and tolerant of Free Speech. Sometimes …
      As for them priests, if you put ’em out of business walk softly and carry a big stick—God has a sense of humour but priests never do. And given half a chance they’d love to celebrate with a few more bonfires.

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    4. Had to get His act together, no? I guess although He created the Everything in a week, being knackered slowed Him down a bit. (How do I know? Run the tape backwards … if we are in His image, then He is our image too … we get tired after a hard day’s yakka, but He was at it for a whole week or so.)

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  6. Mysterious ways, Ark.

    As the good book proclaims:

    “Can you fathom the mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?”

    “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.

    We are but mere mortals possessed of limited understanding. Who are we to question the wisdom of our Creator? 😉

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    1. If we are to accept then genocide and mayhem were a part of his …. Ooops His plan. This then raises the hoary old question of evil.
      Specifically, evil perpetrated by Yahweh.
      After all, according to Genesis, he had liquidated humanity once, had he not?

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      1. Yes, that would be correct. And via his prophet, Isaiah, he once proclaimed:

        “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

        It’s the way that Jehovah roles.

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    2. Just a fancy way of saying, “I know it doesn’t make sense and I refuse to face the implications of the fact that it doesn’t make sense”.

      This argument could justify absolutely anything, done by anyone. If a religion arose which declared that Hitler was the Messiah and was all-wise and all-good, they could hand-wave away the obvious objections with the exact same wording.

      (Yes, I saw your sarcasm emoji, but we know there are religionists who seriously use this “argument”.)

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      1. Yes, precisely. The lesson here is that blind obedience to authority leads to tyranny; and that the browbeating of those who dare to challenge the edicts of the authorities is how dictators maintain power.

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    1. What are your thoughts regarding the post, Beverly?

      Do you not consider how many millions upon millions … maybe even billions of human lives that might have been saved from horrifying death, not least the millions of Christians who slaughtered each other in the sincere belief they were doing so in defence of ”God’s will”,
      had Jesus simply appeared to us all as he did to Paul on that dusty road to Damascus?

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      1. Ahh, but let us NOT forget Ark that Saul of Tarsus had a lifetime excruciating ailment—practically paralyzing sometimes! He called it his “thorn in the side.” And not in the torso, but in his head. But excellent biblical scholarship and academia, that does include many Xian Seminary grads as well as medical experts with a specialty in history, have for all intents & purposes determined with near 99% certainty that Saul’s/Paul’s ailment was none other than TLE* (temporal lobe epilepsy), a most common neurological, biological disease in Antiquity, the Classical, the Middle Ages, and Early Modern Eras until our medical-scientific knowledge and expertise (fortunately) blossomed or exploded in the now Modern Era. Btw, the below source/asterisk is a very good introductory read on TLE. 🙂

        Nevertheless, Paul’s incessant “thorn” was a huge reason why Paul was shunned—a few times near murdered—by his own Syro-Palestinian Jewish people and synagogues. Hellenized Diaspora had an often very difficult time being completely or warmly welcomed by Homeland Jews, particularly Messianic Jews. They more often than not believed Hellenized Jews to be subpar at best regarding TRUE Torah-abiding, Torah-loving and practicing Jews—most definitely Yeshua/Jesus included!

        * – Source: https://www.epilepsy.com/learn/types-epilepsy-syndromes/temporal-lobe-epilepsy-aka-tle

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      2. That’s a bit of a toughie, Ark.
        But don’t forget that He can only do so if before the Creation (or the Big Bang, the terms seem synonymous) He’d actually written it into the script.

        Sometimes I wonder why He even bothers, life (oops) existence must be a wee bit boring for Him. Them (all three of It).
        Bugger …

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  8. Well, ya see, Jesus only spoke to Paul because Paul was the only one with a working cell phone back then. Yeah, he was ahead of his time, that guy. Bad cell phone reception = religious confusion for Jesus. Sad, that.

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  9. Ark, I’m incredibly interested to read any Christians or Xian Apologists’ response to this fine inquiry… maybe not so much ColonStorm’s, but still… hearing from 21st century Christians about this unsolvable quagmire that is Greco-Roman Christendom (not Yeshua’s rabbinical reforms within Judaism) would indeed be very, very helpful. Hopefully not a total waste of time with all their typical, overused, unfounded retorts.

    Is that possible? 😉

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    1. Randy has replied on the original thread and his response is somewhat typical in a hand wave sort of way.
      I suspect, that, if more Christians comment their answers will be in a similar vein.

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      1. I suspect, that, if more Christians comment their answers will be in a similar vein.

        Yes, they will. It’s a very puzzling and honestly, indolent method of hiding one’s ignorance in slothfulness while also revealing one’s enslavement to a convoluted myth. In my lengthy experience dealing with Fundy-Evangy Xians I saw this far too often in those 12-yrs. Still do today.

        In clinical Psych/A&D terms (not in 7 Sins terms 🤭 ) we’d liken their mental-emotional condition to Neurological Codependency. Perhaps they are just too scared to raise their ostrich heads out of the sand? The “sand” being the Church-bubblefication; I’d wager it’s an illusionary mind-trick of safety they do. Idk. In my former 12-years of being a fervent Christian (seminary included) I was very much what some Xians called a “Doubting Thomas.” Hooray, right? And during my first 11-yrs my incessant questioning only solidified my extensive learning and proper exegesis of canonical Scripture. Now WHAT on Earth would’ve been wrong with that!? Then or today!? Oh contraire! 😄

        But alas Ark, now I sometimes get ripped a new arse-holy, especially from radical Fundy-Evangies. HAH! They don’t seem to take too kindly to ME (of all people) knowing their Scriptures, Faith, theology, doctrines, practices, ministries (domestic or abroad), early Church origins/history, et al, much better than THEY DO! BWAAAA!!! Who’da thunk, right? 😉

        P.S. Your boys played another fabulous game Sir, even against (but in respect of course) of Villa’s Manager (Gerrard) despite the score-line. L’pool SHOULD’VE had 3-4 more goals, eh? Nevertheless, that shows/showed their dominance in the middle and final thirds. Klopp and your boys are deservedly #2 in the Table. Congrats. 👍🏼

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        1. They don’t seem to take too kindly to ME (of all people) knowing … much better than THEY DO!

          And why not? It’s not about knowledge, it’s about feeeeling.

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          1. I KNEW beforehand someone like you Nan would bring that “reason” to the forefront, and rightly so too! If I had a dollar every single time I heard that from Fundy-Evangies about my traitress treason-ness Deconversion, Nan… I’d be a freakin’ billionaire! 😄

            But even THAT retort can’t hold any water because every single 7.9 billion living humans on Earth “have feelings”—or IOW, Xians have 2.54 billion singular “Spirits,” that is… Holy Spirits bathed individually in the blood of Christ. 🙄 Or wait! Hold on…

            Then how can Christ’s church/bride all be unanimous in WHICH Holy Spirit is the correct one and not the evil trickster Satan-Spirit!? OH YEAH!!! By Holy Scripture! That is… canonical Holy Scripture! That is… the Greco-Roman (Hellenized) canonical Scriptures. Oh, okay. It seems we’re right back where we started: the New Testament as the final judge. But wait! Hold on…

            Wasn’t Yeshua/Jesus Jewish? Did he not speak Mishnaic Hebrew (in Temple) and Syro-Aramaic (in public) when he spoke? Rhetorical question there. 😉 Then… then how can Greco-Roman Gospels be 100% reliable—or 50%, even 20% reliable IF there doesn’t exist any 1st-century CE testaments, gospels, epistles, etc, NOT written in Yeshua’s (Jesus’) actual spoken tongue, especially where it mattered most: in the synagogues, Temple, and general public Hebrew-speaking Jews!? (commence severe scratching of head…) Oh wait a minute! That’s right…

            The Roman Legions destroyed EVERYTHING in and around Jerusalem, including the Jerusalem synagogue in which James (the brother of Yeshua/Jesus) was its Rabbi in 70 CE, then 73-74 CE at Masada and everywhere else, and most all of those Homeland Jews who spoke Hebrew and Aramaic. But wait! Hold on again…

            Then what in tha Hades do we have leftover when 1) 2.54 billion Holy Spirits are running amok causing all sorts of disunity, and 2) there exists NO AUTHORITATIVE “Scriptures,” much less Gospels, to measure correctly everyone’s “feelings,” Holy Spirits, or multiple translations of supposedly “Christian” (not Hebrew) New Testaments!? 🤦‍♂️

            What a TOTAL CLUSTER-DUCK this whole Christendom thing really is!!! 🤭

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          2. Obviously, when trying to ensure the accuracy of the words spoken by Jesus of Nazareth the compilers of the New Testament used the new-fangled Jewgle Translate. (Available at all reputable 4th century Hellenic bookstores everywhere)

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          1. Oh yeah? 😄

            I didn’t care to watch that match, yes yes, I know… even with CR7—who will NEVER EVER NEVER surpass Lionel Messi as The GOAT.

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          3. 😄 You may be dreaming there a bit Arky. Sadly, Egypt doesn’t compete well enough to surpass the likes of CR7 or Messi… being Portugal and Argentina of course, but unlike an African nation inside the CAF.

            I do wish Mo played with a different national team cuz he absolutely deserves those FIFA accolades, no doubt! But I suspect Mo’s faith and loyalty to his people runs much too strong & deep to concern himself about surpassing the greats of all greats. Agreed? 🙂

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        3. I think the problem and the answer to fundamentalism can be summed up in a statement made by a victorious general in the American Civil War; on being asked how come he won so many battles he stated—

          “Battles are won by whoever gets there firstest, with the mostest.”

          You want rationalism? Then educate your young in Reality (beginning with The Law Of Contradiction).

          If you want fundamentalism, bring ’em up religious, right from the cradle. It mostly works.

          Some will break out, later, but otherwise that’s how too many religionists are created. (Yes, there should be a law against it; equal time for both sides would be fair.)

          At early school (in New Zealand’s biggest military camp at the time) we had cheery army padres indoctrinating us—at no time was any formal ‘other side’ presented. None at all.

          But we learn Reality for ourselves (most of us), life is a great teacher.

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    1. Why would pain and suffering be a prerequisite to “seeing” God? Can’t he just reveal himself to mankind in a pain-free manner?

      “Yet in all this, he would be blinded (would you want that???)”

      Probably not. But the narrative says Paul only suffered for a few days, which is way less time than those who are born blind or lose their sight for life.

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      1. Tks Ron.

        Pain and suffering is not a prerequisite. One persons pain is another’s elation. Saul/ then Paul was certainly a rare bird. I addressed WHY him so to speak. Write a short post recently. Check it out.
        You may be surprised at the logic.

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        1. Paul was certainly a rare bird.

          Hah! 😄 A gross understatement. More like a hallucinating Cuckoo bird. This was part of the reason he was shunned most everywhere he went in Syro-Palestine—almost murdered at least once!—because of the gibberish non-sense he spoke to Homeland Messianic Hebrews.

          Seriously though, Saul/Paul was a Hellenized Jew, Diaspora, and not at all the same as Yeshua, who was clearly a heavily devoted Torah-loving, Torah-abiding Homeland Jew. Besides, Saul/Paul never ever met Yeshua in-person to learn anything straight from Yeshua’s Mishnaic Hebrew mouth. Hence, Saul’s/Paul’s demotion to Greco-Roman Gentiles. He taught utter nonsense from an anti-Semitic posture, consequently being banned from Homeland synagogues.

          Learn your Zugot and Tannaim Rabbinical literature Colonstorm. It will help you greatly learn much MUCH more authentic, accurate history about Yeshua and his actual teachings and intent.

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          1. I am sooooo laughing prof/ hallucinating? Ha!

            Maaybe you or your colleagues have the acumen to write the incomparable book of Romans.

            Insert more laughter.

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          2. Get outside your tiny Greco-Roman bubble. Do your necessary homework/legwork sloth. Then you’ll be amazed by the light and “logic.” 🤭

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          3. Sure thing. Your paltry ‘studies’ are far more respectable than histories record. Just another worn out hammer slinging useless pings against the anvil of scripture.

            Goliath of Gath had a big mouth too. He fell pretty hard. One smooth well placed stone – yet you rail against the timeless word of God. Hilarious.

            The human heart can be both a wonder and a bitch. Ever since the days of Cain- the heart remains the same, and you sing the same stale notes.

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          4. Now your being not only incredibly slothful, but boring to the point of snoring. Lol 😴 💤

            Don’t be such a sad lazy Quitter ColonStorm.

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        2. I did read it. And I was surprised at the logic, because it doesn’t really address the question Ark posed in this post — i.e., why does God choose fallible men to spread his message rather than do so directly in person?

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          3. Really? Not addressed? Did you miss this??

            ‘So chosen yes, for a mission, a purpose no one else would sign up for. Be honest. Would you? Read his own accounting of sleepless nights, without food, shipwreck, beatings, death threats, defending Genesis, Moses, the prophets, all with a view of promoting the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of Adam, and taking the word of God, writing it through his structured personality, without compromise, and in excruciating detail, unfolding the grace of God, which by the way, no mere mortal in his own strength, could possibly deliver, Indeed, he was given a commission others could never execute.’

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          4. Again, why does an all-knowing, all-powerful deity employ prophets and messengers to relay its edicts, when direct messaging would suffice?

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          5. It appears the “point” that CS wants to make in his post is that Paul and other similar messengers were “chosen ones.” Of course he dwells on Paul since he’s the “one” who helped create what CS believes in … the “Christian” religion.

            What the rest of us want to know is WHY did “His Majesty” not spread the message to EVERYONE? Why limit such a GREAT message to just a few “special folk” and trust them to reach not only their generation but the several hundred future ones?

            LOGICALLY (a bad word among believers), it would make much more sense and would (obviously) eliminate all the *crap* that goes on between the several and various sects and groups that are spread out around the planet.

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          6. Yes, that’s the question on the table: why doesn’t God just reveal himself directly to everyone to avoid all the confusion and misinterpretation?

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      2. Which btw Ron, “only suffered for a few days…” is most likely a vague and quite ambiguous, inflated assessment in that time-period given the fact that not even medicine doctors of the time understood anything at all about Epilepsy and Temporal Lobe Epilepsy.

        In all likelihood, Saul’s episodes/seizures lasted merely 5-8 mins at the most. However, a person suffering from this disease/ailment can indeed experience 2 or more seizures in a day or over 1-3 days. From the Mayo Clinic:

        There are many types of seizures, which range in symptoms and severity. Seizure types vary by where in the brain they begin and how far they spread. Most seizures last from 30 seconds to two minutes. A seizure that lasts longer than five minutes is a medical emergency.

        Seizures are more common than you might think. Seizures can happen after a stroke, a closed head injury, an infection such as meningitis or another illness.

        Source – https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/temporal-lobe-seizure/symptoms-causes/syc-20378214

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        1. PT, you (and others) have discussed Paul’s “condition,” but I have always wondered how anyone came to that medical conclusion. Paul speaks only vaguely of his “illness” (thorn in the flesh and a physical infirmity), but I don’t recall any scriptures that would generate the conclusion you (and others) have concluded.

          I question this because believers tend to use bible scripture as the be-all/end-all for most every occasion –especially any that might be (gasp!) contradictory to something they have been taught. So being able to “point to” can often be helpful in such discussions.

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          1. You won’t find it in canonical “Scriptures.” Hyper-religious nutcases could’ve never known enough about epilepsy, especially TLE.

            The condition is found in a plethora of ancient literature starting in 4500 BCE in Indian Vedic medicine described as ‘apasmara’ which means ‘loss of consciousness’. From my Sept. 2018 five part series blog-posts on TLE…

            On exhibit in the British Museum in London are Babylonian tablets that detail accounts of epilepsy (over 40 tablets total) of Babylonian medicine going back as far as 1067 BCE. It records many of the various forms of epilepsy we recognize today. Depending on the ancient culture, these seizures were regarded either as divine visions and revelations from god(s) or from demonic/evil possessions.

            If you or anyone else—like indolent ColonStorm—are interested in more detailed info about TLE, here’s the link:

            https://professortaboo.com/2018/09/11/saul-the-apostate-part-i/

            But Saul’s/Paul’s hallucinogenic experience on the Road to Damascus fits perfectly with ALL historical literature leading up to Modern medicine’s full understanding now of epilepsy. Nevertheless, it is a very plausible (highly plausible? 98% certainty?) that that is exactly what Saul/Paul suffered from, like so many MANY others in that time-period. 🙂

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          3. Hah! Maybe? Probably? I’m sure he was accused several times of demonic possession by his opposition, don’tcha know. 😉 Whether you were around closest friends/family at the time of seizure, or around total strangers/”enemies,” you likely were labeled Divine (in the former)… or Demonic (in the latter) after the episode. Far too many illiterates and uneducated in that day & time spouted off wild imaginative diagnoses. Similar to:

            😋

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          4. OK, PT, I’ll accept your response. However, you must admit that those who rely on scripture alone would question your prognosis. And these are the people most commonly dealt with on the internet, yes?

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          5. Ahh, very well framed Nan! Thank you. You said…

            “those who rely on scripture alone…”

            Exactly my implicit point as well, far too often Xian apologists or Blind-Faithers REFUSE to step outside of Canonical Scriptures. There is their downfall, ignorance, and indolence. They are simply too scared of the actual truth, even the highly plausible truth because Ancient & Classical literature—including the Greco-Roman canonical New Testament—was NEVER written as a factual historical account of events or people.

            Because the canonical NT is so ambiguous, so vague, so contradictory under a scrutinizing modern historical lens, one MUST, in fact there’s no way around it, but one MUST seriously consider, include, and closely examine the time-period in question’s—i.e. Late Second Temple Period Judea, Syria, Palestine, the Levant, etc.—FULL EXHAUSTIVE contextual evidence; every single piece.

            Most all Xian fanatics, like ColonStorm, are too lazy to do the right appropriate, equitable examination of everything from Late Second Temple Judaism/Messianism. Period. ColonStorm exhibits this slothfulness reliably, every single time. Point and case here. 🙄🤦‍♂️

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          6. I don’t disagree that research and study are valuable in order to TRULY know and understand scripture. But c’mon, PT. The average Christian is NOT going to take the time or make the effort. And I don’t think it’s due to laziness! IMO, it’s much more likely they rely on their pastor to “fill in the blanks” (which they don’t) and thus feel no need to dig deeper.

            I know that until I LEFT the church I wasn’t the least bit interested in any more than what came from the pulpit/Sunday School and/or my own personal bible reading.

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          7. Eh. That all sounds exactly like laziness, indolence, call it whatever you want for someone’s intentional stagnation. Relying on OTHERS to do all the hard work, legwork, homework… is what? A severe lack of independent critical-thinking? Being told WHAT to believe rather than learning HOW to believe or think for one’s self?

            Enslavement to a pastor, minister, bishop? Sure. I can live with that description too. 😉

            But once again Nan, you bring up an excellent inferred point about most Blind-Faithers, Followers. They usually want the easiest path and make a god, or other colleagues, friends, what have you… to do all the work for them. Then they call that “having faith.” 🤦‍♂️ BWAAA! 😄

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          8. Agreed. There appears to be no response, no amount of evidence, no presentation of any kind that can breach the indoctrinated walls of those like Colorstorm.
            I am having a similar tete a tete with someone called Edwin on another thread.

            Never having sailed in this a particular ‘boat’ I can only guess at what will unlock this mental block, although from experience chatting with those that have ‘escaped’ it usually comes from the indoctrinated individual themself.

            As a species we are slowly getting to grips with so many previous unknowns, and science is, bit by little bit helping us understand. And yet, religion still has an unhealthy and, dare I say, abnormal hold on so many humans.
            It really is most odd.

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        2. Paul may have had epilepsy, but that may have been the least of his problems. Given his repeated stern warnings against marriage, one can’t help but wonder if that “thorn in [his] side” may have been an ex-wife or girlfriend. 🙂

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          2. ‘Paul may have had epilepsy…….’

            Or Ron, you can read the text at face value and consider he was of a most sober mind. His epistles prove my assessment is correct.

            Btw/ regarding ‘studies and research’ that allegedly lack in Christian’s which would somehow lead them to ‘deconvert’ if they were honest, you may want to consider the following:

            People of all stripes and intellect, such as PhD’s in medicine, engineering , law, agriculture, humanities, etc etc, have applied the same level of dedication to their fields as well as the fields of scripture, and have concluded, by being honest, that life is no accident, that the beginning was ordered, and that nature itself reveals the hand of One above all.

            Maybe it’s just as simple that people are jealous of Peter/Paul/John/Daniel/ etc….

            There are no shortcomings in their legacies. What great works have Degrasse or Darwin left that could possibly endure? The ORIGINS of Chuck was even an unoriginal idea.

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          3. Have you ever considered that the same group of scriptwriters who gave us the Marvel Universe and the Star Wars Trilogy also co-wrote the Judeo-Christian Universe and the Holy Wars Saga?

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          5. Standards, eh? Ok. But “Howard the Duck” is a pretty low bar to hop over, don’t you think? Let’s just say I prefer Gene Roddenberry’s offerings and leave it at that.

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          12. Strange thing about that myth eh? All modern shipbuilders admit the genius of the dimensions- and employ them for maximum cargo and safety. So much for the myth.

            Btw/ amateurs built the ark- professionals built the Titanic. Oops.

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          13. I was referring to the global flood. That is a myth.
            However, as you bring up the supposed seaworthiness of the ark have you a link to a modern shipbuilder that admits this is genius?
            I’d be very interested to read their thoughts.

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          15. All modern shipbuilders admit the genius of the dimensions- and employ them for maximum cargo and safety.

            This is not your blog so you don’t have to worry about any violation or playing link ping pong.
            I won’t even hold you to the ”all” either.
            Just a single link will do to one (shipbuilding) site that recognises the genius of Noah’s shipbuilding skills.

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          18. “ADMISSIONS”??? Huh? Ark, did he actually mean: dimensions? 😆

            Tell me/us if you find any section named Admissions or references to “Admissions” on that Wikipedia Webb page. Didn’t you ask CommonDense…

            Just a single link will do to one (shipbuilding) site that recognises the genius of Noah’s shipbuilding skills.

            I read that Wikipedia link and found NOTHING at all related to Noah and his Ark. Nada. Zilch. And I went a step further Ark. I also went to the Webb Institute offering Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering under-grad degrees. Nowhere, anywhere at William H. Webb’s Institute for boat/ship builders does it mention or hint anything about ‘the genius of Noah’s shipyard skills‘ or even a word about Noah, the supposed Ark, or the global flood. 😒🤷

            Like Marcion and Saul/Paul, I believe CommonDense (CS) is suffering from hallucinations or TLE. 😉

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          19. Okay read it over breakfast.
            It’s an interesting article. Clever feller that Mr Webb.
            But not even an allusion to Noah.
            Sorry, CS, I’d say you slipped up on your link but I’ve dialogued with you for too long to conclude anything other that that was a disingenuous move on your part.
            So I’m calling you out.
            You’re telling porky-pies.

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          20. From the sane link:

            ‘and he also built some of the largest and most celebrated steamboats and steamships of his era, including the giant ironclad USS Dunderberg, in its day the world’s longest wooden-hulled ship.’

            Largest. In its day. WOODEN hulled ship.

            I already told you ark there was no direct reference to Noah, at least here- but the connection is obvious. Where in Gods good name would a man even get the idea to make a vessel that size- if wood???

            Complaints were made about the unreliability/ leaking, etc, yet the length/width/height of ALL liners/ carriers/ borrowed their specs from the Genesis measurements. THAT is the larger point that is irrufytabke-

            Tkx fir looking at it though, and no, no lies here.

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          21. No connection I could make out CS., Sorry old bean, you’ll have to forgive me but it’s pushing 34 here today, I’ve been aiding and abetting my builder and I am cream- crackered.

            You are reading way too much onto that article.

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          22. but the connection is obvious

            Oh really? Just because a man decides to build a wooden ship makes him synonymous with Noah? Only in the minds of those who believe in fairy tales.

            Liked by 1 person

          23. Agreed Ark, absolutely NO CONNECTION whatsoever to Noah’s supposed shipbuilding genius.

            CommonDense (CS) has tried once again to send us on another of his useless wild goose chases. 🙄

            Like

          24. From Wikipedia, the largest known wooden ship ever built — the Schooner Wyoming — was:

            – 137 m (450 ft) long
            – 15 m (50 ft) wide
            – 10 m (33 ft) tall

            It sank due to severe leakage due to heavy flexing in the rough waves, despite having been stiffened with internal steel bracing.

            According to the AiG’s director, Ken Ham, the dimensions of the wooden ark — based on a 20.4″ (51.8 cm) “long cubit” — on display at the “Ark Encounter” are:

            – 510 ft (155 m) long
            – 85 ft (26 m) wide
            – 51 ft (15.545 m) tall

            According to various other sources, it consumed 3.3 million board feet (7,800 m3) of Engelmann spruce and required the skills of over 1000 craftsmen to construct. The largest timbers were 50 ft (15 m) long and 3 ft (91 cm) in diameter — which works out to roughly 11,950 lb (5400 kg) per timber.

            It also required 95 tons of steel fasteners to make it structurally sound for use on dry land.

            Common sense informs us that a project of this scope and size could not have been undertaken — much less completed — by a 600 year old man and his three sons using ancient tools and technology.

            Liked by 2 people

          25. Not only that … the sheer weight of all those animals/insects/birds/fish/etc. would “most likely” have put quite a strain on ol’ Noah’s handiwork.

            Like

          26. In one of his videos, Mr. Ham explained that wasn’t a problem because the various “kinds” were actually genetic prototypes that transformed into multiple species. IOW, the “canine kind” was actually just an animal pair that later developed into wolves, foxes, hounds, coyotes, etc. and the “feline kind” were an animal pair that went on to become lions, tigers, leopards, cougars, jaguars, minxes, bobcats, house cats, etc. (which kind of sounds like he subscribes to evolution, after all, but I digress) — and that these specimens would have been in their smaller adolescent form, rather than mature full-grown adults.

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          28. Yes. Trouble is that explanation it appears to conflict with the account in Genesis 2 where God presents all the fully-developed wild animals and birds in the sky he’s already created to man for naming. But I’m confident our resident apologist will fill in that gap for us with a tidy just-so explanation, as well. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          29. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/could-noahs-ark-float-theory-yes-180950385/

            Do you see why I don’t like linking? One leads to a hundred more. Anyway, look at the conclusion these students reached regarding the ‘seaworthiness’ of their subject.

            Note that while they admitted they were not sure whether the ark was real, they DID admit according to the dimensions, etc, it COULD fulfill its intended purpose.

            At least they were honest.

            Like

          30. From the article cited:

            Even if one could fit all the needed animals on the boat, and if those animals could survive the cramped cruise (the study made no estimates regarding the weight of the food or freshwater needed to sustain the ark population), building a seaworthy vessel is another factor.

            A boat sunk to its max in the water while still staying afloat could easily take on water from any breaching waves. And according to Euler-Bernoulli beam theory, the strength of a wooden beam decreases with its size, so because when things get bigger they break more easily, the beams that held this huge ark together might have been extremely fragile. Else the beams were short, which would also introduce structural weaknesses due to the higher number of seams between wood planks.

            “Theoretically” it could stay afloat in calm waters, but real world evidence informs us that large ships constructed purely out of timber are not seaworthy.

            Like

          31. Plus you are still left with the intractable problem of four men constructing such a huge vessel with primitive tools. Felling the trees by hand would be a massive undertaking, let alone the moving, lifting, sawing, planing, bending and shaping such massive timbers

            Liked by 1 person

          32. The principle of watching ants work and the work ethic of certain people embarrasses most people. We wrongly assumed our forefathers were ignorant, illiterate, lazy thinkers, or incompetent.

            I’m sure I used a lot of their same skill when I built my deck in record time.

            Like

          33. LOL

            Building a deck with power tools using factory manufactured screws and kiln-dried, dimensional lumber purchased from a building center is not quite as taxing as constructing a multi-ton vessel with an axe and handsaws (and that’s assuming such luxuries were even available).

            Like

          34. More assumptions can get you in trouble Ron. lol

            My techniques were nothing short of old world craftsmanship. Not bragging. Just giving credit to the level, plumbline, and hammer.

            Rest assured, we have nothing on the builders of the pyramids etc.

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          35. Well, kudos to you. But it’s not a question of craftsmanship so much as one of resources. Mr. Ham had to have his timbers specially cut and notched at a sawmill in Colorado prior to being shipped to Kentucky — all of which required the use of high-tech equipment that would not have been available to the artisans living thousands of years ago.

            We don’t know how long it to took to build the pyramids, or how many skilled laborers were involved. But according to 1 Kings 6, it took over seven years to construct the first temple, which was only 60 cubits long x 20 cubits wide x 30 cubits high — i.e. 1/5 the length and 2/5 the width of the ark — and he would have had the services of many trained craftsmen at his disposal.

            And legend has it that rebuilding of the second temple took over three years to complete, despite them having a pre-existing foundation available from which to start the project.

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          36. Tkx for the temple reference. I’ve written about that journeymen level work- no doubt second to none- with the stone cutting done off site so as not to clamor the job site- and the metal work/ the carpentry/ any way, once more, don’t underestimate the ferocity of work by men without power tools/

            I think of the Amish etc

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          37. Don’t kid yourself. Even the Amish find themselves having to purchase the things they can’t make on their own from the outside world. And I think it would require more than just a “ferocity of work” to cut down, transport and transform all those trees into 3 million board feet of lumber. It would require a miracle.

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          39. When, where and do you propose Noah, the son of a farmer, acquired the skills to build ships and bulk up his physique to move 5-ton logs?

            Liked by 1 person

          40. If I had to move 5 tons, I would employ a crane, oops, I mean an elephant. Rest assured though, skill was not a problem.

            For goodness -sake, he had the blueprints

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          41. Sure, you could use elephants. Problem is they’re located in Africa and SE Asia. So the question becomes: From whence did Noah acquire elephants? He’d have had to have gone to India to get one. Plus the bible never mentions them directly even once; the closest it gets to that is a reference to using ivory for King Solomon’s throne.

            The blueprints were kind of skimpy on the details: build an ark; make rooms inside and cover everything inside and out with pitch; make it 300 x 50 x 30 cubits; put on a roof and make a side window one cubit from the top; put in a side door and three decks. No supplies list. No tools needed list. No parts diagrams or assembly instructions.

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          42. Ron. I have no idea if he used elephants. I wasn’t there. But I do have it on good sources by people who have no other agenda that to tell the truth. They were no doubt creative and skillful enough/
            Noah and family had over a hundred yrs to erect such a structure, using the framework of measurements given them. It was to be waterproof- and have cargo space the size of Ben Nevis -lol

            Getting way off track though, but the point is made-Pail was of sound mind- Pilate was governer- Malta was an island- and Pharisees live today-

            Tkx forthe interplay-

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          43. Points were made — this much is true. Yet no satisfactory explanation was given for why God is a “no show” in real life.

            As the saying goes: a god who chooses to remains hidden is indistinguishable from a god who doesn’t exist.

            Liked by 2 people

          44. Hi Ron. To me real life IS the Show, his showing of himself. For example, human consciousness is supernatural compared to the animals. Our conscience is how God gets us thinking and discussing him, and his Spirit seals the deal.

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          47. The American Heritage Dictionary defines myth as:

            “A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.”

            Common themes (such as good vs. evil, overcoming personal failure, fall and redemption, etc. ) can be found in both the biblical stories and Hollywood movies.

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          49. 🤦‍♂️ Sheesh. Can you not read or TRY for SOME secular or Jewish reading comprehension, much less do much more than your very negligible spoon-fed church nursery rhymes? You offer nothing except overused, antiquated, pat, New Testament theology, and it isn’t even a majority apologetic view compared to all the other denominational apologetics, theology, or doctrine. Yawn. Ugh. 🙄 💤

            (image of ColonStorm as a big fat lazy frog inside a burning frying pan with a clueless grin comes to mind…)

            Go back to playing with your Jacks or Pickup Sticks inside your tiny hotter and hotter frying pan until you have SOMETHING newer to present than Medieval Age church theology & apologetics. 🥱 Lol

            Liked by 1 person

          50. Quit being a hypocrite CS. Most of this personal claim/opinion of yours about:

            …the same level of dedication to their fields as well as the fields of scripture…

            Not true at all. Your supposed self-proclaimed “Ph.D’s” of blind-faith are a tiny portion of the entire established and reputable field of science. Or… I beg you to prove with numbers, evidence that this presupposed equality of scientific believers vs. non-believers is legitimate. Please, show us exactly, with several links to your imagined personal opinion. Lay it on us you sloth. 🙂

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          51. 5 sighs with a swig of rum-

            Prove with numbers? Who cares but the shallow of thought? Look at the millions of voters who can’t spell ‘cat’ if you spotted them the c and the a ? Who cares about numbers now?

            I revel in things observable/ testable/ repeatable/ things that science dismantles such fraud-

            I have said many times that a friend who is PhD in many aspects of microbiology states that his unbelieving colleagues KNOW there is an engineered design in all things lab/ but that they cannot accept the inevitable/ lest they be laughed at. Some people have no spine but to bow to what pays them-

            And the inevitable?? The Fibonacci sequence for example. Observable/ testable/ repeatable/ the simple spiral and it’s innate coding / proving a universal connection to an Engineer.

            And btw/ hope others who read take note of your very own perpetual insults.

            In a court of law with a fair jury, I come out on top. Sorry- your own testimony incriminates-

            God and His word have never lost an argument

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          52. 🤦‍♂️ Sheesh you are thick-headed aren’t you? Lol

            I’ll simplify it, dumb down my initial simple questions—two of them now—regarding what YOU wrote above in now two different comments, and I was asking you to verify, to show in “numbers,” in quantity the specific NAMES of all these Ph.D’s and shipbuilders. Because you wrote in both comments:

            People of all stripes and intellect, [apparently some large number you’ve imagined] such as PhD’s in medicine, engineering , law, agriculture, humanities, etc etc, have applied the same level of dedication to their fields as well as the fields of scripture… [implying an imagined equality, at minimum(?), in number to those of non-Christian persuasion in those occupational sectors]

            And then in a later comment YOU wrote:

            All modern shipbuilders [plural] admit the genius of the dimensions- …[by Noah]

            Who are all these Ph.D’s? Who are all these modern shipbuilders? Name them.

            In other words CommonDense (CS), give us this large “all of” the names of Ph.D’s who stake their careers & reputation on that life is no accident—as you wrote above. And also “all of” these modern shipbuilders who swear by Noah’s shipbuilding genius. See, simple inquiry to YOUR personal opinions/imaginations written here. Provide these supporting data/evidence. Simple.

            And don’t bother trying your typical Whack-A-Mole dodging games of not explicitly answering simple questions while also attempting to change the subject (a diversionary tactic you abuse) to your overused, antiquated Medieval Age theological mumbo-jumbo. Stay on task CS! Come on… you can do it! Show all of us you are not still a slothful hypocrite and provide the numbers/names. Please share and stay on topic/task. 🙂

            Now, go get the proof and bring it back here so we can all read “all these vast numbers.” Thank you.

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          53. You just don’t get it do you? People who play basketball trade on Naismith having never heard of him. People use cell phones having never heard of Marconi. Yet you fail to see that ALL shipbuilders trade on the expertise and skill of Noah.

            All men borrow that which preceded them. There was an ark. It’s dimensions were given by God Himself who well understood water pressure. His ways are perfect. He is the only true scientist.

            Men today are diploma clad frauds.

            Liked by 1 person

          54. Hahahahaha! You are doing it again CommonDense. Do you even recognize how you are portraying yourself as a Mole popping his dense head up everywhere—like you must suffer from ADD perhaps? You’ve been a complete waste of time like many a slothful hypocrite. We’re done here. I’m better off engaging a fence-post. Lol

            God help those here who continue uselessly with you. I will not be “throwing any more pearls at swine here.” 😄

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          57. Well now prof, a back handed compliment that I UNDERSTAND something, a rare feat these days where people are spoon fed and choke on garbage passed off as knowledge.

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    2. CS:

      Don’t stop.
      You take a fair bit of flak but you have your point of view, and the odd pot-shot (or full broadside) may seem a bit deterring but you present your case, and well.
      Sadly I don’t agree with your viewpoints but you have a right to offer them; and of course folks with contrary points will oppose—it’s only by both cases being presented that cases can be judged. Hopefully on their own merits, but when ‘authority’ is presented as justifications sometimes the authority isn’t recognised as such.

      Foy myself I believe in Free Speech, sadly not everyone does … and the sting in the tail (for you) here is the history of not only your own church but many others too. It’s hard to reconcile ‘gentle Jesus’ with the Holy Inquisition — someone is in the wrong. My one absolute dread is that the Holy Church achieves dominant power.
      Even as a dedicated pacifist I’d come out of retirement and take up arms against such a happening.

      No?

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

      1. I do agree re the free speech thing arg/ credit goes to this blog for that/ people should be applauded for posting that which they otherwise despise/

        But you are wrong about the ‘your church’ reference/ pretty sure I have not demonstrated allegiance to a certain denomination or cult/

        One would be hard pressed to read scripture without the caustic opinions of some- and come up with organizations that are actually contrary-

        As to majority views/ science/ peer reviewed/ of course I am in the minority- surely you would agree that the Wright bros. we’re laughed at too….

        Consensus is mostly useless –

        Liked by 1 person

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        1. surely you would agree that the Wright bros. we’re laughed at too….

          Indeed they probably were. However, they got their ideas to fly … literally.
          You, on the other hand, can’t get a single one off the bloody ground!
          Even Icarus managed to leave terra firma, if only for a short spell.

          Liked by 2 people

          Reply

          1. Nice reply neighbor but you raise a question. Answer when you have thought about it for a spell.

            Your words. Terra firma. I have always loved those words as they are a lesser used phrase.

            Ground. Earth. Right? So in what sense are the OCEANS terra firna? Is the earth IN the water? Or do you include the water and terra firna both as the earth??

            Not a superficial question at all, and well worth the mental exercise/ There are drastic conclusions to be made. Open the floor to your readers- Should be fun/

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          1. You have a storied blog. People should take note. I agree, you make the point about colleges being packed with dunces, just about-

            I scanned your links- tons of info- there is always more to the story. I have a page on my site, at the top, u see ‘anvil,’ scientists of faith. We use their expertise every day from their inventions and not even think how/why/ where they came from-

            Liked by 1 person

          2. I don’t think colleges are packed with dunces. I have a strong respect for people with real expertise in a field. In fact, it’s part of my training as a librarian. It makes no sense for me to teach my students to look for the credentials of the author of an article and not believe in the importance of expertise.

            I provided the links for anyone who would like as accurate information as possible on the matters you all were discussing to update their beliefs or dismiss the evidence as they see fit.

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          3. You are being too polite. Maybe we should compare modern day products of ‘higher learning’ with those of let’s say a hundred yrs ago-

            Television networks are filled with college clad people who cannot articulate a sentence or pronounce words correctly. It is a travesty to the ears. Then there is always what is passed off as ‘science’ by the experts by they who while being degreed, cannot agree on anything using the same information.

            As a book person, surely you are aware of these ‘intellectuals’ who dare edit the work of Sinclair Lewis Arrowsmith……. because they find this or that offensive. Bastards of academia to tamper with the classics.

            I could cite thousands of similarities that higher learning produces far too many dunces. But sure, thankfully there are exceptions.

            Liked by 1 person

          5. I confess to not reading the articles in their entirety, but both links appear to be surveys among scientists, college profs etc in America; if the titles are anything to go by, that is?
            I almost had to stifle a yawn at the mention of Francis Collins.
            When it comes to religious trends in ”Western” Society I’ve always considered the US to be somewhat of an outlier.

            I suppose this might be considered a natural deduction about a nation that plays posh rounders, has a World Series (sic) and for most of the sport’s history failed to invite anyone else to play.

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          6. Console, do you also teach your students how to present laughably misleading information?

            You say “scientists,” but the study you point to is a survey of the American Association for the Advancement of Science.

            I’m sorry, but while falling under the category “Science,” dentists, podiatrists, computer engineers, chiropractors, sociologists, statisticians, linguists are NOT members of the “greater” sciences.

            Here is their Member Organisations list

            Acoustical Society of America
            American Anthropological Association
            American Association of Geographers
            American Chemical Society
            American Educational Research Association
            American Mathematical Society
            American Philosophical Association
            American Physical Society
            American Political Science Association
            American Psychological Association
            American Sociological Association
            American Statistical Association
            Association for Information Science Technology
            Capital Area Social Psychological Association
            Case Western Reserve University Science and Human Rights Coalition
            Global Alliance for Behavioral Health and Social Justice
            Linguistic Society of America
            National Center for Science and Civic Engagement
            Sigma Xi, The Scientific Research Honor Society
            Society for Research in Child Development
            Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues
            Society for the Study of Social Problems
            Sociologists Without Borders

            Now, if you think the opinion of a chiropractor or an economist equals that of a biologist, a geneticist, or a cosmologist regarding the nature of reality, then great. Good for you. I don’t.

            Nature did a survey just of The National Academy of Sciences (whose members are ALL greater scientists). In that, NAS mathematicians scored the highest with 14.3% believing in God, but when you got to actual specialists, Biologists scored the lowest at just 5.5% believing in God, and physicists and astronomers coming in at 7.5%.

            Quite a different picture from the one you tried to paint, huh?

            Liked by 2 people

          7. No, but I do teach them to be cautious about human biases and how it affects people’s judgement when they analyze information that doesn’t conform with their beliefs about the world.

            I didn’t include the NAS study or this one about the Royal Society on purpose:

            https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1936-6434-6-33

            While it’s true that eminent scientists have high levels of non-belief, these organizations are elite organizations that don’t include ALL members of the “greater” sciences (as defined by you). So given CS mentioned multiple disciplines (including non-science ones) and PT mentioned he wanted CS to provide a comparison of believer Professors versus the amount of nonbelievers in those disciplines (not just a small sub-section of elite scientists), I thought the two studies I shared provided the most relevant data to addressing that particular request. I didn’t include the other information because I didn’t feel it was representative or relevant enough to what they had actually asked for. But sure, I completely agree with you the data reveals that a huge majority of the scientists of those two elite organizations don’t believe in God or a higher power.

            I also haven’t commented or offered an analysis of the content on any of the links I provided.

            Liked by 1 person

          8. But sure, I completely agree with you the data reveals that a huge majority of the scientists of those two elite organizations don’t believe in God or a higher power.

            Fair enough. I was drawn to your comment in light of your other comment regarding “expertise.” In light of that I thought it rather misleading (if not thoroughly contradictorily) that you would then sneak in a study which lumped ALL the ‘sciences’ together, and therefore elevated the views of chiropractors and linguists to the same level of “expertise” as biologists and cosmologists.

            On this subject (the nature of reality), one should only deal with (what is called by others, not me) the “greater” or “higher” sciences.

            Liked by 1 person

          9. For reference this is what CS wrote as quoted by PT:

            “ People of all stripes and intellect, [apparently some large number you’ve imagined] such as PhD’s in medicine, engineering , law, agriculture, humanities, etc etc, have applied the same level of dedication to their fields as well as the fields of scripture… [implying an imagined equality, at minimum(?), in number to those of non-Christian persuasion in those occupational sectors]”

            PT’s comments are in the brackets. So I understood the question to be: Do PhD believers outnumber PhD nonbelievers across disciplines? Or vice-versa? Not which discipline or experts should you turn to in order to better grasp reality.

            Otherwise I would completely agree with you that we should rely on biologists when it comes to questions about biology, cosmologists on questions of cosmology, and obviously a cosmologist is going to have a better understanding and be a more reliable sources about the workings of the universe than a chiropractor.

            Liked by 1 person

          10. It might be unfair to dismiss the views of chiropractors. After all, aren’t they the backbone of the scientific community?

            Liked by 2 people

          1. In the ideal world of ‘free speech’ … people are free to float any idea they like/wish; and it is up to other minds (if they can) to dispute those ideas where they can.

            And then it’s up to others to refute them if they disagree by presenting a better case.
            It’s only by batting ideas around that the best come to the top—and if ‘Truth’ enough they become recognised as knowledge. This is how we advance.

            In the good old days (brrrr) the biggest hairiest thugs with the sharpest swords shouted down any ‘truths’ that clashed with their own. Not good.
            Hence various Inquisitions, and prerogatives of knowledge. Also not good.

            I personally disagree with any religion with which I have even the foggiest murkiest acquaintance. But, as much as I disagree with Christianity, some of my wife’s and my best friends are very devout Christians. We stay friends because we delight in each others’ companies, know each other’s views; and none of us tries to push our point on to the other. Hell, I even had a girlfriend that I used to drive to her divine services to save her the long walks, once. She went in, I sat outside in the car; and westayed very good friends and lovers for a loooong time.

            Live, and let live.

            I disagree with the Book that CS loves, and the religion he stands for … but he is entitled to his notions, and to present them.
            My grief is not with him but some of the thoughts he holds dear. To me, they are mistaken—to him they are the Truth.

            My own notions of Time and Space, infinity, and creation etc etc etc clash with his; but as some name I’ve long forgotten said to the effect “I disagree with what you say, Sir, but I’d fight to the death for your right to say it!” (Patrick Henry? Damn. I’ll check it out later and will then have a monumental head-slap moment.)

            Amen to that.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Argus,

            I do very much appreciate this delightful explanation of your earlier comment to CommonDense (CS). You’ve gone above and beyond the call of duty Sir and admirably that shows! Well done! 🙂

            On the flip-side of that Silver Dollar coin you wrote too…

            In the ideal world of ‘free speech’ … people are free to float any idea they like/wish; and it is up to other minds (if they can) to dispute those ideas where they can.

            This is indeed a profound assessment of human nature—which certainly includes the parties here 😉 —and human cognition, including non-cognition or innocent ignorance. This is the fairly new field of Agnotology. Let me explain as briefly as I can… HAH! 😄

            Ignorance is generated in many various forms. Naivety, neglect or apathy, myopia, secrecy, disinformation, extinction, censorship or suppression, faith, and forgetfulness. They are all sources and surrogates of ignorance. By it’s very definition it permeates many recognized and unrecognized domains. Here are the general classifications of ignorance within Agnotology:

            • Native or Innocent State – it defines ignorance that is a deficit to overcome, or something to grow out of, as a naïve child would eventually learn that getting 8-hours of sleep per day is actually beneficial in the long-term, or that lying necessarily leads to more lying.

            • Time and Mental Constraints – Argus, this is the one you refer to here. We cannot possibly study and understand all things. We must leave some alone, leave them to the true experts of the field, select what subjects deserve our needs and attention at that moment. As a result, this form of ignorance is a product of inattention and can be lost for a period of time or forever. But these constraints should NEVER be an excuse to label something factual or true for this reason!

            • Moral-Exemplary Caution – ignorance for the sake of survival, protections, or mental, physical, and emotional stability. For example, which uranium and plutonium combinations are highly classified so as not to fall into the wrong unethical hands. And certain forms of torture on prisoners have specific classifications.

            • Strategic Subterfuge – there are times that from a National Security standpoint ignorance is warranted. Two prime examples of strategic subterfuge would be the World War II Allied Manhattan Project from 1942-46, or Operation Fortitude/Bodyguard in 1943-44 leading up to the Normandy Invasion, both highly successful webs of deception that shortened the war with Germany and Japan.

            Now, the major critical problem inherent to “free speech” within a democracy such as ours in the U.S. is accountability for exactly what is said so freely. IOW, there must be responsibility to the DISinformation (lies, inaccuracies, half-truths, etc.) so many people spout off, like CommonDense (CS) continually does with abuse… WITHOUT backing any of it up with anything independent, or non-Christian, or non-canonically Scriptural. This merely makes his Whack-A-Mole non-sense personal opinions, fabrications, and imaginations when he refuses repeatedly to back any of it up with verifiable data, evidence, NAMES of Ph.D’s or shipbuilders. See the hypocrisy? Or in the words of the Dead Sea Scrolls… see the Spouter of Lies? 🙂

            Yes, in the end it is indeed left up to us, individually to NOT BE indolent, slothful, lazy, indifferent with our proclamations and their supported sources, facts, evidence, data, bibliographies, etc. It is indeed very, very time-consuming and requires an extraordinary amount of determination and eagerness to dig, uncover, lift, push aside, repeat in this process. But what is the alternative Argus?

            If you think education, hard work, legwork, stepping outside one’s comfort zone, and testing and retesting hypotheses are expensive, costly… then try ignorance and blind obedience!

            It must be done Argus because otherwise dimwits like CS will get away with saying “the Earth is flat.” 🤣 And there are thousands of other lazy, slothful people who will believe him hook, line, and sinker then call him Messiah!!! 😬 YIKES!!!

            Liked by 1 person

    1. If I was spiteful I might suggest Santa not visit you this year, Mr. Pink.
      As it happens, Emily was due to fly with KLM to Portugal on the 16th to spend Xmas with family, in fact.
      It was going to be a birthday surprise for one of them.
      But, as we now know all travel is put on hold.
      Ems canceled her flight last Thursday.
      KLM issued her with a credit which she’s hoping to use in Feb next year, or maybe we may join her and go over later towards Summer? Covid restrictions allowing, of course.
      We’ll see.

      Liked by 1 person

      Reply

  12. How the hell does anyone get to be a “Chosen One”, anyway? Do you just appoint yourself as one and then go around telling everybody “Wasn’t me who decided, it was God wot done it. Honest”, and credulous folk take you at your word?

    Liked by 2 people

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    3. I think the Islamists believe that the insane are holy, as being ‘touched by the hand of God’ …
      (which must explain something about all holies?)

      Liked by 1 person

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    1. And Argus, if I may please add to your Voltaire quote, along similar lines… the “it takes a village” proverb attributed to Toni Morrison, I’d like to add one more regarding a republic’s widespread tolerance, understanding, collaboration, and most importantly compassion for its fellow citizens, no matter their their personal PRIVATE beliefs and activities… as either a majority, minority, or something in between to maintain and protect, E pluribus unum.

      “My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular.”
      — Adlai Stevenson

      I should think that former American Ambassador to the U.N. Stevenson would today be appalled at what his Congressional colleagues and the GOP have become today. I’m sure if he were still alive, he’d have a speech RIPPING a new arse-hole to today’s Republican extremists and indolent Republican Moderates. Btw, his arse-whipping would definitely include Conservatives and ultra-Conservatives, no doubt. 🙂

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  14. In Invercargill (NZ) I approached a guy who’d made a wee scaled down ‘replica’ of Noah’s ark using biblical references and about umpty zillion commercial ‘matchsticks’; and I cheerily baled him up about the dinosaurs he had peering out of some of the many ‘cabins’. Sadly I no longer remember how he handled it, but after a friendly discussion that involved the sea-handling capabilities of his replica he had to invoke God’s ‘most likely’ protection for the Noah and his wee pets.
    I had to concede though that he’d made a damn’ fine model — as far as models go. (How good an actual likeness I couldn’t say.)

    So there ya are, then … get Big G on your side and you need never fear the tempest.

    Now, Mr God, Sir … about that launching ceremony for the Titanic~? You remember, where the nice lady invoked your blessing on her (ship, not Lady) and all who sail in her?

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          3. 💤 🥱

            Where’s that list of Ph.D’s and shipbuilders you promised? Oh never mind, you scared if go do any legwork you’ll fall over the edge of your Flat Earth you purport. 🙄

            P.S. from here forward CommonDense (CS) I won’t bother reading a single letter you type. And when you address me, all you will ever get is 😴💤. Pearls to educated & high-intellects, not swine, remember ColonoscopicStorm.

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          4. It appears you do not have the intellectual standing to compete with the most sober minds.

            My POINT about the potter/ clay sums it up. It is obvious that it’s scorching application has found it’s mark- like the arrow in the bulls eye.

            Don’t bother with your childish z’s- and I’m glad others get to see the real you. lol

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          5. It appears you do not have the intellectual standing to compete with the most sober minds.

            I HIGHLY doubt it in PT’s case … but of course SOME “sober minds” wouldn’t recognize intellectual standing if it was sitting on their holy nose. 🙄

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          6. The inflammatory language of some (colon) instead of (color) etc, cannot be missed by fair minded people. For once I would love to hear someone from this blog say, ‘you know, mr. storm makes a good point.’

            But nice of you to pop by-

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          7. Well, it would be VERY tricky for you to HEAR it … but I’ll bite. “You know, Mr. Storm makes a good point.”

            (The only problem is … as yet, I haven’t found Mr. Storm making any good points … so I’m unable to say it without prejudice.)

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          8. Rest assured, you have my word the moment you make a god … oops sorry old chap, I meant good point, I will not only commend you but in all probability dedicate an entire post to this point … whatever it may turn out to be.

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          9. C’mon ark you can do it. On your recent post even,
            Reading the Kjv will increase ones vocabulary, a true asset in a world of mental mediocrity.

            Topaz, beryl, firmament, expressly, etc.

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          11. Now you are being stubborn. Much more to learn. Geography, history. Animal husbandry, architecture, literature, poetry, deceit, lies, war, law, prejudice, etc etc.

            But I’m speaking of WORDS which primarily enhance ones power to communicate.

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          12. Geography -Wrong. History – Wrong. Animal Husbandry … well, they did things differently in those days and y’know, the nights were long and cold and sometimes all those shepherds had were sheep.

            If it’s words you want, then there are far better resources than the bible.

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          13. Seems your Hangup ark is throttling your appreciation of scripture and it’s accounting- sorry but, you do not know more than they who lived/ and accurately documented the origins/ and the lives of men-

            Also, how is not the first mention of Tigris and Euphrates wrong? How is the town of Hiram wrong? How is the rule of Pontious Pilate unreliable? I could go on but it’s your loss/

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          14. You are impervious to the term Historical Fiction so why would someone bother to educate you on its meaning?
            You probably think James Bond is real just because you get to see Aston Martins, shaken martinis and Big Ben in pretty much every 007 film.

            Stick with your Bumper Bible Colouring Book , CS. Reality was never your forte.

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          15. Hmm. Just because you neither like or approve something ark- does not make it untrue. You would compare I. Fleming to Paul or Daniel???

            And it is me who resides on fantasy island? By the way , where is your post that proves the earth is not immovable? You like evidence. Bring it. Word fir the day: fantasy.

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          19. 😄

            “Don’t worry—be happy.” (Que Bobby McFerrin song & whistling 🎶)

            It’s only one specific Commenter here that is people’s Black Hole… sucking up everyone’s energy, oxygen, and intellectual stimulation into nothingness that puts me to sleep so fast. He and only he induces widespread narcolepsy when his mouth is open or he types. 😉

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          21. Yeah, probably thanks to Vlady Coufal’s 🟥 in the 67′. Arteta has them temporarily in 4th position, however, I know good-n-well they don’t REALLY deserve to be in the UEFA Chmpns Lge top-4 slots. Their losses over the last 4-5 weeks reflect their mediocre play/quality, given the starting squad. I think the only reason they’re in the top-4 at the moment is cuz their wins over the last 5-6 weeks have been against poorer (much poorer?) teams. So I’m not optimistic with my Dunners. Not yet.

            When they play Man City, Spurs, your Reds again, Man U, and Everton again… we’ll see if they belong in the Chmpns Lge top-4 or not. Personally, I don’t think they’ll stay there come May 23rd. I see them winning maybe only 1 of those matches. 🙄 Plus, Aubameyang is no team Captain; doubt he ever will be.

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          22. OH! Forgot to say that there is one wonderful bright light for Arsenal! His name is Aaron Ramsdale! 😁

            However, as I was told multiple times down in Rio de Janeiro in my playing days down there, not one single Brasilian player or coach thought that just because your squad has a great quality or superb goalkeeper, doesn’t mean you can when titles and championships.

            Ark, man did I find out that to be SO humbling and painfully true. 🤦‍♂️😄

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          24. Haha, along with Bergkamp, Viera (if Palace would release him), Cazorla, Kolo Touré, Gaël Clichy, van Persie, Ljungberg, Pires, Silva, Alexis Sánchez (in his prime), and Tony Adams? SURE! Then we’d have a decent chance… in the English Premier Ole Timers League—keep emergency walkers and gurneys nearby! 😄

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          26. Then you really know your footballing stuff Ark! I’d nick him quick too along with Virgil van Dijk, Salah, Mané, Alexander-Arnold, Jota, and Jürgen Klopp for good measure for my fantasy Gunners! 😉

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  15. Again, and I have to keep labouring this point:

    There’s no such thing as Free Will.

    Religiously: God knows in advance what you are destined to ‘freely choose’. (So the ‘choice’ you think you have is merely an illusion, no?)

    Technically: there are (to the everyday man) three physical dimensions and one of what we call ‘Time’ … but Time too is an illusion. By way of example, we can only ‘do’ what we are going to do. Were going to do … were doomed (!) to do, even before the Big Bang (or God, take your choice) created Creation.

    (But be warned, anyone going down that path could end up as batty as moi.)

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