Was Jesus a Christian?

Okay, I know …. silly question. But the passage below which I have lifted from David Roberston’s blog opens up some interesting questions.

Of course it is not just about church history but rather what the Scripture says about itself – and what Jesus, Peter, Paul and Mary believed.  Does anyone seriously think that they believed that Scripture was in error? 

David Robertson.

As Jesus and friends would only likely have heard/had access to Torah what would he have made of such tales as Adam and Eve, Noah and the Flood and Moses and Exodus?

Robertson has used the phrase ”in error” which could be construed as slightly ambiguous, so I am wondering, would Jesus (assuming for the sake of argument he existed) have considered these tales historical fact, or as de facto God/Yahweh incarnate recognised they were simply foundational myth but taught they were fact?

Ark.


80 thoughts on “Was Jesus a Christian?

  1. Hello Ark. I am not a biblical expert, but if Jesus existed my understanding is he was a person preaching a version of Jewish scriptures not generally accepted by the main stream religious leaders. He was at odds with the accepted understandings even though he was an observant Jew from his point of view. Hugs

    Liked by 3 people

    1. But in the bible he asserts that the Law of Moses for example is in force and by all accounts he comes across a believing this character was real and the Exodus to be historical fact.
      Do you think he would he have lied merely to convey an analogous message or did he genuinely consider these myths to be real?
      This would cast serous doubt on any divine claims, surely?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hello Ark. Agreed if he was real and really did say that then he ruins the divinity aspect of his nature. However like Professor wrote most everything we know about the bible characters was written by people far removed from the originals time frame. So for me it is like asking what George Washington thought of Ahab chasing after Moby Dick in a book written long after he lived. IMO. Hugs

        Liked by 5 people

          1. I have a hunch that Jesus was originally portrayed as a Jew in a jewish community. Christainity only came lolloping about long after he had died. In order to make the new religion palatable to the Romans, they down played the Jewish aspect, and Im sure by now it is so lost in mists and conjecture that even if he did exist no one is really sure what he was. Or, er, if he was.

            Liked by 2 people

          2. judy — IF you believe the scriptures, Yeshua was most definitely a Jew. It was Paul who later “transformed” (not transfigured) the man into a Super Savior.

            Liked by 2 people

          3. Judy,

            That is a widespread opinion too of many Jewish and Secular scholars of the subject. When one examines thoroughly the ENTIRE historical context of Yeshua’s/Jesus’ lifetime—as well as prior to and 3-4 centuries after—OUTSIDE of strictly abused Greco-Roman Christian sources and evidence (the Kangaroo Court), then your hunch or a version of it is extremely corroborated and plausible, if not spot on.

            And the exhaustive evidence for simply a failed Jewish Rabbi-reformer and/or “Messiah” in the proper Second Temple Judaic Period or simply an executed Jewish dissident of Roman authority, is overwhelmingly convincing. But of course, Christian Apologists and hardline Fundy-Evangy Believers will NEVER want to equitably go outside of strictly “Christian Apostolic & Church Fathers” of the 2nd thru 5th centuries CE and those “holy” sources or authenticated REAL history of the 1st-century Levant. That was one reason why Satan was invented and was made to control this Earth (i.e. non-Believers, skeptics, etc.) and any counter-arguments or proofs to Christianity’s veracity.

            I’m in your camp too Judy on this one. πŸ˜‰

            Like

      2. Back as a Christian, mostly in my teen years, I carefully read the gospels. And I came to the conclusion that Jesus never actually made any divine claims. That’s part of why I left Christianity.

        But that was back when I trusted the written gospels. By now, I doubt that they can be trusted.

        Liked by 4 people

        1. And I came to the conclusion that Jesus never actually made any divine claims.

          And Neil, you hit ONE of many utter fabrications by Greco-Roman Christian Church Fathers (post-70 and post-74 CE, Jerusalem/Temple & Masada) and total hijacking and subsequent maligning of (rewriting Homeland Jewish Sectarianism) Second Temple Judaism’s/Messianism’s exegetical tenets established over six (6) centuries! There is ample, scholarly Jewish and Secular evidence to overwhelmingly show that Yeshua’s/Jesus’ Reform Movement (The Way) was purely for Israel’s restoration from Hellenism and Rome, i.e. total independence, and thus, a return to purer Torah-living and political practices on Earth, i.e. God’s Kingdom on Earth: Israel.

          In authentic Late Second Temple Judaism/Messianism—not Hellenic versions from Egypt or Hella (the Greek city-states) or Asia Minor: Cilicia and Tarsus, etc, where Saul/Paul was from—those Jews and Rabbis knew it was NEVER a heavenly or divine salvation for the entire Pagan world, only Israel. It was Greco-Roman Patriarchy, Archbishops, bishops, etc, that later changed—in fact, 1-2 centuries later—Jesus’/Yeshua’s true ORAL reforms/teachings (in Mishnaic-DSS Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic) to a Hellenic Apotheosis version that Gentiles would be more familiar with… making recruitment easier for Rome and better, more attractive to Pagans than Judaism’s recruitment at the time.

          Liked by 2 people

  2. I cannot remember the verses involved, but the Jesus character says over and over that the stories are true. Now, if he was just saying that because that was what people beleived, then he was lying. Not a good look for a god.

    But there are so many points of debate that are perfectly ludicrous, why invent new ones. Take, for example, the Eucharist. Jesus basically passes around some wine and tells his followers that “this” is his blood. Catholics are expected to believe this is literally true. But the Jews sitting around that table? Drink blood? This would be the vilest violation of Jewish dietary laws that could be imagined. They would rather have eaten roast baby if given the choice between that and drinking blood.

    This “scene” was written by no Jew, nor was it edited by a Jew. Maybe it was designed to keep Jews out of the movement but this would be passing strange for a Jewish cult, don’t you think?

    Liked by 4 people

    1. This “scene” was written by no Jew, nor was it edited by a Jew. Maybe it was designed to keep Jews out of the movement but this would be passing strange for a Jewish cult…

      You are exactly spot on Steve! And modern skeptics, Secularists, or Evangy-Fundy Xian Faith-followers (ala Pastor Robertson) MUST ALWAYS REMEMBER that their “holy” 4th-century Canonical Gospels were not scribed in Yeshua’s (Jesus’) two native fluent languages: Mishnaic-DSS Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic. The latter language was the one he spoke in public to his mostly Jewish audience and his disciples. And btw, NO manuscripts/gospels exist in either Aramaic or Mishnaic Hebrew today!

      This right there (the language problem) blows Robertson’s highly erroneous presumption of ”in error” completely out of the water. His church history is obviously non-existent, especially of Yeshua’s culture, family, sect, and heritage, none of which is Christian in the least. Period. Why? Because by 60 — 70 CE his entire Sectarian Movement—i.e. against Herodian Temple Judaism and the Roman Empire—was wiped out, essentially exterminated by the V, XII, XV, and X Legions. This is why the Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden in caves near Qumran.

      Learn CORRECT authenticated history Robertson! Otherwise, your blog-posts and all Christian messages/propaganda are simply bogus and fabricated.

      Liked by 2 people

  3. No Ark…Jesus knew they were real because He was here from the begining and had a hand in the creation. I know you don’t believe this but ……

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    1. So, when Jesus was Yahweh (as depicted in the Old Testament) he was also a mass murderer. How do you reconsile the claim/view of a God of love when we read he exterminated the entirety of humanity save for Noah and his incestuous family?

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Viewpoint, Ark.

        Go back to WW2 and consider that if God had wiped out the huns complete and so saved His beloved chosen people … any visible contradictions there at all, in this idea/notion/thought/concept?

        From the humans involved, not good.
        But from the God of love and compassion, sweetness and light, kindness and mercy … ya can’t make an omelette without cracking eggs.

        Liked by 1 person

    2. Had a hand in the Creation? I thought that He was The Creator … and since The Creator created everything, then He alone created Satan and all the many thousands of devils and stuff like that … which being omniscient He did in the full knowledge of what they would be doing.

      Ergo the nice Being created all the evils Himself, and deliberately set them loose on His brand new toys (us).

      But don’t fret, He knows what He’s did, has done, and will be doing, for ever and ever amen. It’s not your destiny (predestined by God Himself) to query Him, is it? Face it, lowly mortalβ€”

      β€”your opinion ain’t worth a fish’s fin to The Almightyβ€”all YOU are worth is the few praises and worshippings He absolutely craves and which you deny Him. For shame, Madam!

      Now get thee to the nearest church and empty your wallet/purse into the collection bucket; take along any progeny you may have and turn them over to The Lord’s service … and I guarantee you will be forgiven. (For so long as you keep up the Good Work …)

      Liked by 3 people

  4. Does anyone seriously think that they believed that Scripture was in error?

    That is the most ludicrous proclamation I’ve heard in a long time by a Christian “pastor.” πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈ This is an absurd question for the simple reason that it is anachronistic. In 30 — 33 CE (approx time Yeshua was preaching reforms) no one had already “recorded” his canonical Gospels BEFORE Yeshua had publicly spoken to his audiences and disciples! Geeeezzzz! What an asinine question and horribly FLAWED logic and cognitive skills!!! πŸ€¦β€β™‚οΈπŸ˜„

    Liked by 1 person

      1. Based on the previous Robertson sentence (and portion you quoted) to the question I quoted? Yes. I was simply going by the two sentences you quoted Ark.

        Plus, everyone knows that Robertson views EVERYTHING thru a Fundy Christian lens… even somehow the Jewish Tanakh. He will REFUSE to view the “Old Testament” and “New Testament” any other way. Because to do so would undermine and dismantle his entire Faith and Christendom.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Fyi Ark…

        I have no desire whatsoever to go over to his blog and read everything because he only wants Commenters commenting who are in complete agreement with his own propaganda—an echo-chamber, if you will. Plus, he censors all yours and my comments and those that challenge him BEYOND 3-4 replies, i.e. he gets irritated quickly, has a knee-jerk reaction to any opposition worth its salt. Then he soon slides into personal attacks if you reveal his flawed logic and cognitive skills.

        What’s the point in trying to debate a radical Muslim state or monarchy when THEY control everything!? Whoops, I meant radical Christian authoritarian blog. πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜›

        Liked by 3 people

        1. “Plus, he censors all yours and my comments…”

          And has the chutzpah to rail against the big social media platforms for practising censorship of their own.

          Christian, thy middle name is ‘hypocrisy.’

          Liked by 2 people

          1. Which is also uttered during those last gasp intimate moments between the Christian husband and wife.
            They would like to admit to having a menage a trois but I suspect that would be regarded as a sin?

            Like

  5. Not only was Jesus a Christian, he was, more importantly, an American Evangelical Christian who was born in Alabama in 1949 and helped found my great, God-fearing country! He was also author of the US Constitution wherein he writes, “I, Jesus, the Son of God AND also God/Yahweh Himself, do hereby decree this grand new country, America, to be a land for Evangelical Christians, gun nuts, and white folks who love guns and are also Evangelical Christians themselves. $Amen$” Whodda thunk it, eh.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Hello inspiredbythedivine1. Isn’t it the Mormon idea that the Native People here in the North Americas were Jewish people who Jesus came to preach to in the 1600 or something. And Eden was in Missouri? I am so confused. πŸ€”πŸ˜²πŸ€ͺHugs

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Who knows what Peter, Paul and Mary believed? They spent a big part of their lives singing … don’t recall them ever sharing their beliefs outside of their musical tunes. Maybe I missed something?

    Liked by 6 people

    1. Well done! I was going to pick up on this but I thought I’d wait and see. Glad someone didn’t dissapoint.
      Besides, there were no Jet Planes in Judea during the 1st Century, right?
      πŸ™‚

      Liked by 3 people

    2. As I recall it, Peter, Paul and Mary believed in: the hammer of justice, the bell of freedom and the song about love between their brothers and sisters all over the land.

      Liked by 1 person

  7. Ark, I NEVER visit this guy’s blog, but took a quick look just now and was reading his About page. This stood out to me — “To him [Jesus] I owe everything.” Of course, he does. Where would he be without his parishioners faithfully tithing and giving “offerings” to Jesus?

    These pastors/preachers truly have a weird outlook on life — in more ways than one.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. Hello Nan. What is the old saying? Never argue with someone whose paycheck depends on them not changing their mind? Or something like that. That implies that the religious leaders know it is a grift. Do you think they, people who studied this all their lives, could really think it is a reality denying truth? Or do they just know it is a means to a paycheck and accept it? Hugs

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I have no doubt there are Christian leaders who are truly dedicated to their faith. But I also have no doubt that some (many?) of them are more interested in the weekly offering baskets and the commitment of their tithers because the only skill set or talent they have is regularly standing in front of a group of people talking about Jesus.

        Oh and also the fact that SOME of them enjoy flying around in jet planes.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Hello Nan. A bit OT. As some one who was a believer who found their way out I think you are far better than most to answer the question: For those going through the motions just for their paycheck, for the donations, for the collection plate, how do you feel about them? Do you feel sympathy, or pity, or anger. There is a well known organization for religious leaders who have realized it is a scam and help them move to civilian life. I will look it up and send it next. Hugs

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          1. For those who have no other profitable skills, I have no feeling for them one way or the other. Many of them believe they were “called by God/Jesus” to preach so that’s what they’re doing. For some it’s all they know how to do. Some finally take stock of their lives and leave the ministry and find help through the organization(s) you suggested.

            I DO have contempt for those who “feed off” their congregations in order to live in mansions and enjoy other “perks” of the wealthy. They are blatantly ignoring the words of the Jesus they preach about.

            Liked by 3 people

          2. Nan,

            You are speaking directly about my ex-wife’s and son’s current church, The Ark Church, Conroe, TX… an offshoot of Joel Osteen’s Lakewood Church, Houston, TX… and now my daughter’s church in Temple, TX. They are all part of the popular Christian wave/trend racing across the U.S. called Prosperity Gospel or Prosperity theology, where it is “God’s abundant blessings of wealth” that are freely received, encouraged, and boasted about by these ministers and their congregations. THE God/Christ is clearly on THEIR SIDE! 😬

            It is truly sad and disturbing, plus these are almost always people of a specific socioeconomic and political demographic and ethnicity, if you get my drift.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. IMO, anyone who allows a preacher of the gospel to take their money and spend it on “worldly” possessions needs to re-read their bible and see what it says about these people:

            And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits? And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.

            …The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.

            Liked by 2 people

          4. Exactly. If they really knew the true Yeshua of sectarian Judaism, very similar to the ascetic Essenes of Qumran near the Dead Sea, then they would easily know that Yeshua/Jesus frowned heavily upon worldly riches and wealth and its corrupting of souls.

            My ex-wife, if you didn’t know, has been on staff at The Ark for over 12-yrs. That’s 12 annual pay-raises!

            She and her husband, a country club golf-store and restuarant Asst. Manager, have moved 3-times into progressively bigger, higher valued homes starting with the first at $365,000. The current one is extraordinarily opulent. She drives a 2018 Mercedes-Benz E-class sedan along with their two Toyota Sequoia SUV’s. What does that tell you about office staff wages at her church? 😲🀯

            Liked by 1 person

          5. Now, now, PT. You should be happy for her. She’s been BLESSED, doncha’ know? Perhaps not by her god but surely by the folks at the The Ark Church.

            Liked by 1 person

        2. Kenneth Copeland’s ministries own several private jets, I believe.

          (Hey, they have to have somewhere to entertain the groupies. Led Zeppelin were the same).πŸ˜‡

          Liked by 4 people

          1. I bet Mr. Copeland is a Nickelback fan.

            I’ll need a credit card that’s got no limit
            And a big black jet with a bedroom in it
            Gonna join the mile high club
            At thirty-seven thousand feet

            Liked by 1 person

    1. That means he got double the presents, as a Jew AND a ‘Christian’, for both Hanukkah and Christmas.

      Spoiled little pisher.

      Liked by 2 people

    2. Hey blhphoto! (a total sidenote here, sorry Ark) ⚽

      Did you catch how well Sebastian Soto played in the USA’s 6 – 2 victory over Panama? Yes, it was Panama, I know, but this lineup was basically all of our European based boys with the exception of Christian Pulisic nursing his leg injury. Soto came on as a sub in the 77th minute then scored 2-goals, both GREAT headers! Here, checkout the highlights if interested…

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Hi Prof. Yes it got a good write up in our local press (obviously). Funny thing, after we were talking about him the other day the paper had an article about the lad. It seems the reason he’s on loan in Holland is because he has not been granted a work permit for the UK. To get a permit easily he must complete 60% of USA’s internationals in a year. Would have been nice option to have him available, he’s already netted 5 in 7 games for Telstar.

        Liked by 1 person

      2. @Prof
        Oi! HIjacking my religious post with bloody soccer again. Just ‘cos you were a goalie in another life, remember Jesus saves more than you ever did, bloody heathen!

        Liked by 2 people

    1. HOLY EFFIN HADES, HORNS, and FORKED TAILS!!!! 😲 That Father/Bishop might as well snap the spine and turn that baptized infant into a quadriplegic!!! GOD DAYUM that’s insane shit!!!

      Liked by 1 person

  8. Hello Ark. I am tired and about to go to bed so maybe I am misunderstanding something about the great Christian god which has already been addressed. But if that god was so awesome, so omnipotent, so powerful, why are there so many different prophets talking for the same god, in so many different countries with so many different versions of that deities words being the most important ones, and all of them wrong? If my GPS in my car was that faulty I would demand the dealership fix it ASAP. I am thinking of all the US religious grifters claiming god told them tRump would be the next US president. Either their god is so powerless it can not see the will of the people or … it is a delusion of the grifters who used that scam to suck up money. Hugs

    Liked by 4 people

    1. God knows the future, so He cannot change it. No?

      Religious folks of any brand do not accept this point, and who can blame them? To do so would be a form of mental suicide.

      Even the best of minds cannot resolve such a contradiction (as that between God’s Omniscience, His Omnipotence, and His infinite compassion/mercy/love.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Hello Argus you grand dog. I have often said that if their god knows everything past, present, and future and has the perfect plan then the idea of praying for what you as a lowly human wants is an insult to that god. You are declaring your wants are more important than gods perfect plan. Wow, how totally weird is that. Hugs

        Liked by 2 people

  9. Those are questions which are difficult to answer without making a bunch of mostly baseless assumptions. If we go from the Bible, Jesus seems to clearly believe in the Torah, based on the number of times he quotes it. It’s unlikely he would’ve believed in any of the NT concepts since they didn’t exist back then (not that this pastor would consider that).

    Of course we have to then assume that this Jesus was real. But even if he were, how likely is it that he said anything attributed to him in the NT? I would say not very likely.

    Liked by 3 people

        1. As well as can be expected giving my country’s being run by a fascist orange bitch of a crybaby and a party of right-wing shit-bags who are enabling him. Still, far better that Biden won than if he didn’t. I’m kinda hoping tRump locks himself in the WH bunker and has to be dragged out on Jan 20th in handcuffs. How are you, my friend? Very good to see you commenting again. Now, if we can just get SoM back to blogging, all will be balanced in the world. πŸ™‚

          Liked by 2 people

          1. I’m well. Well, over the hump at least. Nasty few weeks there.

            Ignoring Trump and his scheme to remain relevant, seems the US is presently divided between those who can see the con and those who can’t.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Most can, but millions of dick-less, motherless fuck heads can’t. Scary shit. It’s a mind virus, like religion. Glad to hear you’re doing better. The internet, and WP, are better places cause you’re on them.

            Liked by 2 people

          1. I doubt they’ll ever do that. I honestly don’t think the GOP could ever win an election based on popular vote alone and they know it. Oh, BTW, GOP stands for “Grand Ole Pussies,” cause that’s what they all are: Trump’s pussies.

            Liked by 2 people

          2. Yes, there is no possible way to predict what the U.S.’s delusionally psychotic Mob-boss in the WH will try next, other than continue to denigrate our Constitutional Democracy the last 4-years, and now his scorch-and-burn tactic on Washington D.C. He and his Election pseudo-legal team filed some 33 lawsuits (in swing states) and NONE OF THEM have achieved anything at all. He is 0 for 33.

            So yeah, the Electoral College is probably one of many “targets” of tRump’s delusional psychosis and incompetence about legal federal governing and democratic processes and precedents set over 200-years.

            Liked by 2 people

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