Jesus of Nazareth. Who?

There are two major claims regarding the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth:

  1.  He is God. A supernatural being who was raised from the dead after being crucified.
  2. He was also a normal human being.

Question: Is there any verifiable evidence for either of these claims?

 

 

Ark.


170 thoughts on “Jesus of Nazareth. Who?

  1. Surely, you jest. Were there to be such evidence, thousands of years of efforts will have gone to waste. Oh, and I wonder how much consternation would ensue as the evidence rarely backs up the company line.

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    1. I find it odd, and somewhat a little disingenuous, that even someone such as Ehrman considers there is evidence enough to make a knock down case for the existence of the non-God character Jesus of N.

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      1. With Ehmans foot in both camps he has a virtual cash cow. Providing proof to both sides (his expert opinion) was pretty genius. Its like Hitch’s brother being born again (with a book of course) to play both sides. Its an ageless trick.

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        1. I have maintained for a while that he is a secret believer in the non-existence of the character, -because, let’s be honest, there really is no verifiable evidence – but is waiting until he is ”past it” or ready to retire before he comes clean. A sort of Anthony Flew in reverse!

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          1. The evidence for his existence (the writers) is more likely written about an idea from another belief system. Whoever wrote the gospels, and primarily the gospel of St John, was very keen on Hindu culture and left out the key parts. Whether intentional or not, it was a dandy effort to present this as hebraic in origin that arrives at faith, but no further. Someone very keen on the gullible human nature.
            But I know how Bart must feel. The sunken cost of lifelong belief is difficult to fully admit. Was there a jesus? Maybe, maybe not, but whoever wrote it up and sold it was a genius. And all the monarchy of heaven and monotheism hangs on a word Bart I’m sure, is aware of.

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          2. ARK — o, ye of little faith~!

            If you want salvation from Go— (oops) of God, stop thinking and start faithing! (It only hurts for a little while, I’m told)(after which the sky’s the unlimited limit).

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  2. Proof? Undeniable evidence? For THAT kinda thing ya gotta become Muslim like me and follow the Quran. Right smack dab in it it says, “This book is NOT to be doubted.” I mean, COME ON!!! How much more evidence does one need, eh?! Why anyone is not Muslim is beyond me. I guess you can lead the horse to a library, but ya can’t make ’em read.

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  3. Hi ark

    I would say BOTH are true.

    Normal as in being ‘born of a woman,’ subject to the trials of humanity,

    yet according to the scriptures, (which is enough proof) fully God in the flesh. You want to know God? Study the life and times of Christ: what He said, and more importantly, what he did.

    Tkx for posting a fair question.

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    1. Oh CS … I so love it when you comment because it gives me all these snarky thoughts!

      Ex: You wrote: yet according to the scriptures, (which is enough proof) . And my response? PROOF???!?!? HAHAHAHA!

      Liked by 6 people

        1. I came across something awhile back that showed how to do this … and thought I saved it but apparently not as I can’t find it. Doing some research right now … will get back to you.

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          1. You’ll have to excuse my ineptitude: my laptop is ancient and one we brought back from Portugal! Many of the links show up in Portuguese and although I am conversant the tech stuff is beyond me.
            Does one need a plug in?

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          2. Ark … re: comment images — go to the website I provided. You will need to have the image you want to use already in your computer. When you click on “Choose Images,” you will select the one in your computer than you want to use. In the next screen that appears, choose the SECOND option (i.e., “Direct Link”), then copy the provided link and paste it into your comment. (You do not need to have an account.)

            If this doesn’t work, you may need to consult someone who speaks Portuguese. 😉

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          3. You have to take the pic you want and tape it to your computer screen over the post where you want to post it. Then you have to take off all your clothes, bath in the blood of 6 virgins, shout out, “OOOOGGGAAA BOOOOGGGAA!” six times, and pray to almighty Zeus not to smite you blind before your picture appears in the specific WP post you want it to show up in. That should do it for you.

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          4. Lol 🙂 Alive and well, my friend. Just been plagued with a combination of lots to do and little to say. I’m going to try to check-in more often, though. Fingers crossed…

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          5. Hey-hey Nate! Soooo happy to “see” you. You’ve been missed!

            Re: the “how-to” re: images … unfortunately (unless I’m missing something) your instructions don’t always work. If the image you want is on another site, what you suggest would probably work. But it the image is one you downloaded to your computer at some point in time, I think you have to go the route I suggested.

            If I’m missing something, please let me know … so we’ll ALL know. 🙂

            Liked by 1 person

          6. Yeah, you’re right. If it’s on your computer, you do have to upload it (ie, host it) somewhere. That’s how you get the link that you would paste into the comment.

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      1. But you asked for proof.

        Gods word is good ark. So unlike liars who do so well as they ply their craft. And the devil is the most smoothest of liars, actually convincing people: Did God really say THAT?

        So yeah, plenty of proof. Btw, the Kjv does not have a copyright. That should get your attention.

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        1. Glad I provide comic relief nan. But I especially appreciate the absolute perfection of the provable science of the ‘kinds,’ which Darwin tried to hide it in his ‘species.’

          Then there is the flora and fauna. Love the consistent science of Genesis. But you asked for proof while you ignore what stares you in the face.

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        2. A claim by itself does not constitute evidence of the things expressed within that claim. Otherwise you would be forced to accept the Muslim’s assertion that “There is no god except Allah and Muhammad was his messenger.”

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          1. That would be true if your observation was correct….

            ….but God’s word, as the ONLY reliable and provable source material, has no worthy competitors.

            Of course if something is true, there would be many imposters and knockoffs.

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          2. You ask this question several times. It is a good one. My answer never changes.

            We have govt records in buildings that are reliable and honest. We have deeds marking property boundaries and dates. We view this info as honest, just like we view historical names and dates.

            Prothonotaries and scribes ensure that tomorrow will be certain.

            Yet, God’s word is far better. We have His WORD, which is more sure. It’s preservation of historical accuracy is sufficient.

            And as I said, just because there are knockoffs such as every book and sect under the sun, this would not tarnish scripture one iota. Why?

            ‘Thy word is forever settled.’

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          3. Ark, the EXACT way I know my level does not lie. Straight and true. Gods word reaches a place inside a soul like nothing else can, and exposes every lying opponent.

            The science of the level and the truthfulness of scripture are identical. This is the same way that I know the ko—-ran in not level, and speaks with a forked tongue.

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          4. But unfortunately (for you) my observation is correct, because Muslims do make that claim. So it’s your word against theirs and the followers of every other religion/philosophy claiming to be in possession of the ultimate truth. Moreover, when you factor in that religions have a frequently split into competing factions rather than coalesce into a congruent whole, it appears fairly certain that none have any handle on the truth.

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          1. I’ve noticed that theists prefer to use “Humpty Dumpty” logic:

            “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’

            ’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’

            ’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.”

            ― Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass

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        3. The greatest scam the Church ever perpetrated was convincing the gullible — like Barry Speck aka @ColourMeClueless — that the Devil actually exists.

          When you’re on a losing wicket, as Christian fanatics are, just keep on adding more supernatural figures, as if they were axiomatic, to prop up the initial dubious ones.

          Brilliant!

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    2. But whose scriptures? And why those, why not any of the others … perhaps you should read The Holy Koran, and take on board the messages therein: peace, love, compassion, mercy, and eternal salvation.

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      1. Hi Argus/
        There will always be wannabes who/what will pretend to be the head and not the tail.

        Take Goliath from Gath , that 9’ goon who thought he could wipe out a man of lesser size…….

        ….then there was that lying fool Haman, the weasly Herod family/ you get the point.

        Gods word is the head- starting from Genesis/ the ONLY verifiable and testable account of creation, which by the way answers mans deepest needs.

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    3. Emphasis mine:

      You want to know God? Study the life and times of Christ: what He said, and more importantly, what he did.

      According to ancient Jewish law and traditions dating back to the Second Temple Period up to today, a boy’s Bar Mitzvah at age 13 is a MAJOR event with deeply significant meanings and responsibilities for the teenage boy’s coming life into adulthood. Then should the young man be gifted to become a Teacher-Priest, then it had to happen at age 30 during the first day of the month of Tishri, or the Feast of Trumpets.

      Both of these crucial milestones in Judaism for a boy’s then man’s life are SERIOUS rites of passage because of what he did and accomplished in those vital 17-years to qualify to read and teach the Torah in the Temple or in Synagogues.

      Therefore, since you pretend to be some “expert” on the life and times of Jesus… please tell all of us CS… what exactly did Jesus do between the age of 13 to 30? Be very specific and provide explanations for those years and activities to prepare to be a Jewish Teacher-Priest? 🙂

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      1. Yeah like this is the first time I e heard this gripe. Nice try being a magician and avoiding what IS revealed, and speculating what is not. Typical smokescreen.

        I suggest you focus on the fact that at the age of TWELVE, we find the Lord I. The temple, among the most studious of rabbinate and elders- hearing them, and ASKING them questions.

        Note they were amazed at His understanding/ understanding revealed by the depth of questions/ yet, while He could have, THEN, He did not lecture them of their ignorance.

        This would come later. Many things could have been written but were not, but THESE WERE.

        But of course you know that already, yet you persist and wallow in stubbornness.

        Then there is the account of the Lord mute before Pilate only to hear ‘I find no fault in this man.’
        So who are to find fault where every man on earth has failed.

        Oh how scripture reveals mans darkest deeds.

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          1. I say everything written while at times may be u comfortable, can with absolute certainty be relied upon.

            Further, history is a fine first hand witness. I all look ready mentioned the govt documents of deeds, wills, etc, which are RECORDED to ensure posterity.

            Why people do not give God and His word the same consideration is beyond me.

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        1. 🤦‍♂️ Geezzz, where you invent these words, interpretations, and give NON-answering circus dances to simple questions actually makes your beliefs/position useless and weak. With this non-sense you’ve demonstrated this yet again. 😄

          First, this was not a gripe. If you REALLY knew the facts about the “life and times” of your Jesus you’d quickly realize your foolish interpretation of my comment and question to you. It must be your own smokescreen clouding your reading comprehension and ignorance of your own “Christ.” Clearly you do not know what you’re babbling about. 😄 Therefore CS, sit down in your classroom seat, listen/read, and pay close attention to what you have missed about your “Christ.”

          A true knower of Jesus/Yeshua would know that he was a full-on Jew steeped inside a volatile time of Late Second Temple Judaism. Remember? Quite diversified Judaism. And so specifically CS he was a rural-born and raised Sectarian Jew, i.e. not part of any group inside Jerusalem, but at least exposed to and familiar with 4-5 Jewish sects in Syro-Phoenicia and Syro-Palestina. Ask any modern Jewish Rabbi today from any of the current eight groups and they will all tell you the same things about a Jewish boy’s Bar Mitzvah and a young man’s Feast of Trumpets (for Teaching & Priestly endeavors) are HUGE milestones that ALL eight sects of modern Judaism practice!

          So in fact it is YOU Colonstorm who needs to focus on the comprehensive “life and times” of Jesus, not everyone else. And the referencing of what is written in your Canonical 4th-century New Testament Gospels I know inside and out. Fortunately, those four Gospels are NOT the only accurate, authenticated stories about Yeshua/Jesus. You should do your homework CS and do it much more thoroughly before spouting off like a (fake) expert of Jesus’ “life and times.

          Now, it would greatly behoove you Colonstorm to remain silent about your “Christ” OR go back to class and complete the entire contextual history surrounding your figure/person, his background, his religion, his ACTUAL teachings factually based upon ALL of Late Second Temple Judaism/Messianism, ALL of its various Sects of the time, and ALL within the confines of Imperial Rome. Your single tiny, narrow lens you are (foolishly) stubborn to keep needs and requires a MUCH LARGER panoramic view to know the FULL entire “life and times” of Yeshua bar Yosef and a whole lot less of your Greco-Roman Christ.

          Don’t bother side-stepping the questions and topic at hand again CS. You make yourself more and more ignorant than you’ve already demonstrated. And that’s a SUGGESTION of course… for your own benefit. 😄

          Liked by 3 people

          1. Eh, thanks Nan. 🙂

            But I am just constantly blown away by not just the sheer ignorance of almost 99.75% of all Christians, but MORE SO by those who spout off false claims (like CS above) as if they know their Roman “Christ” intimately when clearly they know very little at all, especially if you ask them questions about Yeshua’s/Jesus’ undeniable Jewishness!!! 🙄 They don’t realize just how stupid they sound/read when they can’t volunteer or answer most anything about his background! And as I have shown with CS-the-Flatuous, if you ask them even some of the simplest questions about Yeshua/Jesus, their erroneous Greco-Roman position and bogus theology gets weaker and weaker by pretending to know him intimately. It’s quite sad actually. :/

            But with Colonstorm it’s a bit entertaining to watch him turn into a bumbling clown with all his pretty balloons bursting. 😄 I can’t help myself making him jump and dance like a scared Barney Fife (Don Knotts) of The Andy Griffith Show… shooting my metaphoric pistol bullets at his feet. DANCE little kitty, DANCE!!! 🤠😈

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          2. “ Ask any modern Jewish Rabbi today from any of the current eight groups and they will all tell you the same things about . . . a young man’s Feast of Trumpets (for Teaching & Priestly endeavors) are HUGE milestones that ALL eight sects of modern Judaism practice!”

            Feast of Trumpets? Teaching and Priestly Endeavors? Can you elaborate on this point? And provide citations?

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          3. Found this. Don’t know if it’s the same thing?

            https://jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/newsletter-sep-2000/the-feast-of-trumpets/

            The Original Meaning of the Feast of Trumpets
            Leviticus 23:23-27 maps out God’s commandments concerning this festival:

            Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ‘Speak to the children of Israel, saying: “In the seventh month, on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation. You shall do no customary work on it; and you shall offer an offering made by fire to the Lord.”‘

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          4. Hello CR. Good to see you again Sir. 🙂

            Feast of Trumpets? Teaching and Priestly Endeavors? Can you elaborate on this point? And provide citations?

            Yes, of course.

            Before I elaborate CR, it should be noted that there are numerous time-line theories by historians, biblical scholars, etc, of all religious and non-religious persuasions about Yeshua’s birth, activities, and death. None of them are held in any unanimous Secular or religious consensus. Therefore, this adds levels of complexity that I chose not to jump into with Colonstorm here; just too lengthy to go into. I chose to use the common time-line theory of his birth, activities, entrance into Jerusalem, etc, used by most all Christians referencing their four Gospels layered as well with templates of Judaism’s time-line. This puts Yeshua’s departure from all four Christian Gospels at age 13, followed by his return to public Priestly-Teaching at age 30. Fyi, many/most of my citations are from extant ancient sources.

            All Christians must accept, at minimum, that upon Yeshua’s return from Gospel-silence and Galilee he was (suddenly) 30-years old. Why 30? Here is where there is only one direction to go to find out anything Yeshua was doing between, as the Gospels narrate, 12 and 30. That is straight to Judaism, for obvious reasons. More specifically, to Late Second Temple Judaism and the hyper-hoped Messianic salvation of Israel/Judea. The Gospels are utterly silent on these critical 17-years. Roman records are far too short, vague, and ambiguous. Hence, those vital missing years can only be deduced and plausibly inferred from purely authentic Judaic sources.

            Yom Teru’ah (יוֹם תְּרוּעָה) or Feast of Trumpets:
            This is the biblical name of the Jewish New-Year, Rosh ha-Shanah or “head [of] the year.” (Lev. 23:23-32). Further explanations can be found here:

            http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14531-trumpets-feast-of

            And at that same website the portion entitled “Rosh ha-Shanah,” or anchor #6 in the URL address above at the end “…trumpets-feast-of/#anchor6

            Teaching and Priestly Endeavors:
            If I understand your question correctly CR, to “elaborate” on Yeshua being a Teacher-Priest based upon Jewish and Christian sources… these are the most relevant corroborating sources:

            A Teacher-Yeshua — he is called 45-times total in the Gospels, 39 in the Synoptic Gospels, 6-times in the Gospel of John. The 1st-century historian Flavius Josephus in Antiquities Book 18 calls Yeshua a “Teacher.” As a Priest or Chief Priest? In the Hebrew Scriptures or Tanakh, Numbers 4:3, states that a Priest had to be 30-yrs old. Luke 3:21 states that he was this age. A “Chief Priest” above your high priests in Apostolic Constitutions 2:25. And then of course according to Late Second Temple Judaism and the well-known, well-documented debates, chasms, and alliances of 1st-century CE Sectarianism, there existed four kinds of messianology or the 4-pronged nature of the anticipated Jewish Messiah(s):

            • Military leader
            • Sage or Teacher
            • Prophet like Moses, and
            • High Priest

            Though it must be remembered that none of the many diverse Jewish sects of the time ever unanimously settled on a precise definition of Messianic leadership and salvation of Israel. My case here to Colonstorm was that even his ONE SINGLE source: his amputated and obscure 4th-century Greco-Roman New Testament cannot be in any way a definitive source of Yeshua’s/Jesus’ Judaism/Messianism of the time. One HAS TO utilize all available sources for proper context as Dr. Matthias Henze of Rice University explains thoroughly in Mind the Gap: How the Jewish Writings between the Old and New Testament Help Us Understand Jesus listing a whole library of required Jewish literature which modern Christians are ignorant about.

            I hope this helps CR. Thank you for your interest in this. 🙂

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          5. I probably should’ve elaborated more on what I am wondering s out because your response doesn’t really touch on my question. You made it sound like in your comment that there is a modern practice, a milestone ceremony, a young man’s “Feast of Trumpets” when Jews turn 30 if they are a gifted scholar in modern versions of Judaism. Bar Mitzvahs are real modern day Jewish ceremonies, but I have never heard of anything resembling what you described as a milestone ceremony in modern Judaism, but I also could be wrong.

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          6. Well, I see now that I needed to be more precise with the time-period I was focusing on—the Late Second Temple Period—and Rabbis today specializing in the Late Second Temple Period recognize the significance of age 13 of a Jewish boy going back in time well into the Second Temple Period. However, there were no ceremonies. See this link:

            https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/history-of-bar-mitzvah/

            Regarding the significance of age 30 for a Jewish man during the Late Second Temple Period with heavy, hyper-anticipation of Messianic salvation for Israel, and given Yeshua’s family genealogy—if we are to assume Luke’s Gospel is reliable or fairly reliable at least for John the Baptist’s mother Elizabeth’s Aaronic Priesthood heritage,…and then Yeshua’s mother Mariam—was a descendant of Aaron… , making Yeshua a PRIME candidate for a high priest, Chief Priest, and even possibly one of Israel’s Messiahs, or as I mentioned above one of, two of, three of, or four of the 4-pronged Messianic natures/components that all the Jewish sects of the time debated. We also know of many Messianic claimants during this time-period. It isn’t a stretch to say—under Rome’s heavy governing on trouble-making conquered peoples—many highly gifted, highly educated Jewish boys/young men with that type of genealogy as Yeshua had would want and prepare for whatever role they could play to rescue Israel from their enemies. In the end they all failed, thus becoming FALSE Messiahs. Modern Jewish scholars specializing in the (Late) Second Temple Period and its Messianic fervor are well aware of these details/nature of what the debated Messiah/Messiahs would be and do. After all, I’ve learned all about this stuff mostly from modern Jewish scholars/Rabbis while studying extensively all the Jewish literature from periods of Zugots, Tannaim, Amoriam, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and non-Canonical biblical sources.

            The biggest point being for all this—and ColonStorm above—is that CS’s 4th-century Greco-Roman version of a Hellenistic “Christ” is a severely limited, amputated, convoluted and ambiguous source for the AUTHENTIC figure of Late Second Temple Judaism commonly known within 1st-century Judaism as Yeshua bar Yosef. The fact that he and 99% of modern Christians have no knowledge whatsoever of Yeshua’s/Jesus’ Jewishness is actually a testimony to the overshadowing power, influence, and governing of the Imperial Roman Empire and the near obliteration of a Semitic people, culture, and religion.

            Hope this further helps in what I’m sharing here. 🙂

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  4. “Is there any verifiable evidence for either of these claims?”

    Of course there is. Theists make these claims all the time –; sometimes they make them even on your own blog. Or have you forgotten? 🙂

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  5. Oh my gosh, sometimes the utter oaf-ism makes me want to laugh, but I can’t. If there was a wink, or a smiley, or something to indicate they were not bloody serious then I could tolerate it.

    I suppose I could pad the desk so it doesn’t hurt my head so bad… “According to scriptures it is therefore true!” And did I really just see an argument from level? Headdesk, headdesk, headdesk.

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  6. “He was a normal human being. He was also raised from the dead” … ouch. Methinks a wee contradiction in terms therein. And as we all know, contradictions can only be apparent:

    there is no such thing as a contradiction—only one or more false premises.

    (Clue here: normal human beings do not resurrect from the dead.)

    Liked by 3 people

      1. Easypeasy … ol’ Drac was a not-normal human being.
        Resurrecting is no problem for them vampires, but we were talking normal human beings, no? Normal like some of our politicians … (or have I just shot myself in the foot?).

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    1. Similar claims are made by the neighbors of mass murderers and pedophiles.

      “We never suspected a thing! Seemed like a a fairly normal, friendly, kind and gentle sort of bloke. The kind that would go out of his way to help others.”

      Liked by 3 people

  7. I tend to go with the second of your listed claims — that there was such a human. The evidence for this seems quite weak. But it is the traditionally accepted view, so it is easier to go with it and avoid getting into an argument. It doesn’t actually matter to me whether it is true, and I guess that makes it easy to go with the flow.

    As for the first claim — that Jesus was God. There is no credible evidence for this, as far as I can tell. So my position on that is that it is conceivable, but only with a lot of stretching. It is highly implausible.

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      1. I’m not going to worry about that. Jesus can take care of himself. And if he doesn’t exist and never existed, that makes it even easier for him to take care of himself.

        It is crazy conservative Christians that bother me.

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    1. @ Neil.
      But is there any verifiable evidence for the second claim or are we merely hanging on to the coattails of those ‘experts’ and others who claim there is, and ”any fool” can see this?
      Emperor’s New Clothes anyone?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. I’m not aware of any conclusive evidence. However, it isn’t important enough to me, so I’m okay on going along with the “experts”.

        There isn’t any conclusive evidence for mythicism, either.

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      2. Your point is certainly a valid one Ark, however, there IS verifiable evidence for many 1st-century Syro-Palestinian Jews/Rabbis named Yeshua—a very common popular name among Jewish families then—arguing amongst their own Jewish Sects, several being (in desperate hope!) prematurely called the Dual Messiahs or at least one of the two, AND causing dissent and rebellion against Rome, who were executed for their civil disorder. IOW, all those men, all failed Messiahs including all named Yeshua… were quite real. Just NOT in the context of the Greco-Roman canonical Gospels. 🙂

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    2. NEIL—

      I always found it hard to accept that the universe is finite, keeps expanding into a nothing nowhere, and is only X billions of years old before in that timeless nothing something changed and made it go POP into existence.

      Naaaah, both notions are equally as unlikely. But as much of science seems faith, why not?

      Liked by 1 person

        1. And nobody can lie like an unhung Christian fruit-loop.

          Unless it’s a Moslem fruit-loop of course—both answerable to (a) the One and only True God*, and (b) in possession of THE only True Faith.

          Watch this space …

          ———— * unless it’s their one.

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  8. Ark, you ask Is there any verifiable evidence for either of the following claims?

    He is God. A supernatural being who was raised from the dead after being crucified.

    He was also a normal human being.

    To the first question: No, there is no verifiable INDEPENDENT evidence outside of highly biased Greco-Roman Church Fathers centuries after Jesus’ presumed execution. For anyone who claims there is has no understanding of the concept and unreliability of a fair trial and verdict from a Kangaroo Court, Judge, and Jury. Period. This is not rocket science for intelligent, free-thinking people.

    To the second question: Yes, during the time-period in question, in the FULL contextual setting of this alleged person/Rabbi-reformer, there were indeed hundreds if not thousands of Jewish boys named Yeshua—it was an incredibly popular common name. These Jewish reformers wanted to purify the Temple, Jerusalem, and Israel’s/Judea’s worship and practices from the unholy Hellenistic influences of ‘false Jews’ (Diaspora) and especially of Pagan Rome.

    Hence, there were several/many “Messiahs” who turned out NOT to be true Messiahs of Scripture/the Tanakh or of Second Temple Judaism. But none of these Mishnaic Hebrew or Syro-Aramaic Holy scrolls could be clearly, or fully, or partially interpreted by, much less understood, by uneducated Greco-Roman Gentiles identifying with age old Greek traditions of Apotheosis and Greek philosophies. But this Greek theology had NOTHING representing or identical to true, pure Judaism and Messianism as many, MANY Jewish manuscripts and the Mishnaic Tanakh, the Zugots, Tannaim, and Amoriam Rabbinical Periods recorded in 10 – 220 CE… i.e. during Jesus’ or Yeshua’ life!

    Furthermore Ark, according to correct Second Temple Period Jewish practices and traditions, the identifier Jesus of Nazareth probably doesn’t—most likely doesn’t!—mean a Rabbi from a region known as Nazareth, but instead is an identifier of his sect. And the Nasari/Nasoreans moved around a lot teaching and admonishing Jews to REJECT corrupting Hellenistic and Roman infiltration into their holiest of Holies… the Temple, the Temple Priests, and all of Jerusalem and Palestine. To them Rome was a poison.

    Therefore, to precisely answer your question Ark, NO… there is no verifiable evidence for a Greek-Roman caricature of a Christ (Apotheosis), not in the least! But there is plausible evidence for a Torah-loving, rural, roaming, Sectarian Movement with family/brothers all throughout Palestine, Galilee, Judea, etc. The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm this quite overwhelmingly.

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      1. That is exactly correct Ark. 😉 I’ve said it multiple times on several blogs in our circles that today’s New Testament is NOT any verifiable history of a specific 1st-century person/rabbi or a Jewish Messianic Movement with its leaders (Yeshua and Ya’akov, or Jesus and James). The biblical character or caricature “Jesus of Nazareth” is a purely GREEK-ROMAN story hijacked and invented by Greco-Roman Gentiles—whose primary mover was a Herodian (fake) Jew named Saul of Tarsus, a Diaspora Jew corrupted by Hellenism and Rome. There is no historicity to prove this latter myth and legend. It has NO VERIFIABLE origin in Judaism. Period.

        Does that make sense? 🙂

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Sound’s a lot like like Robin Gibb’s backstory to the song “I Started a Joke”:

          The melody to this one was heard aboard a British Airways Vickers Viscount about a hundred miles from Essen. It was one of those old four engine “prop” jobs, that seemed to drone the passenger into a sort of hypnotic trance, only with this it was different. The droning, after a while, appeared to take the form of a tune, which mysteriously sounded like a church choir. So it was decided! We accosted the pilot, forced him to land in the nearest village and there, in a small pub, we finished the lyrics [with Barry]. Actually, it wasn’t a village, it was the city, and it wasn’t a pub, it was a hotel, and we didn’t force the pilot to land in a field … but why ruin a perfectly good story?

          Or to stay within the “Life of Brian” universe:

          “He’s making it up as he goes along!”

          Liked by 2 people

    1. Oh Anne, you have NO IDEA just how much of a troublemaker Arkesatan is. It’s LEGENDARY! I do not know anyone in the WordPress blog-o-sphere that gets banned from Evangy-Fundy Christian blogs than Arkesatan. In fact, he has been placed on the NRCA and the WRCA—National Register of Christ Offenders and the Global Register, respectively. Last I checked Ark is #6 on the NRCA, up from #666, and #69 on the WRCA, up from #96 primarily because of his Liverpool Football Club. 😉 Some have all the luck. 🙄

      Liked by 1 person

  9. I don’t think that any amount of presentations, discourse, argumentation or outright zealous warfare will ever settle these silly superstitious issues. Belief is belief, and that’s the end of it.

    Actually, it’s NOT the end of it. Far from it, it’s more the end of the beginning of the troubles. (Frankly, I blame God.)

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  10. And here’s a point: when I do lay the blame, where it belongs, on the (THE) Prime Mover … I never trigger any debate. (In fact people look away and walk off whistling …) Again: why is that?

    Hell, I even changed my toothpaste …

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  11. For the superstitious non-educated primitive bronze age goat herders the fact that someone possibly of a higher intelligence and position claimed it was true about a man dying and becoming alive again would simply be enough facts for them to shout it from the roof tops. Gullibility goes hand in hand with ignorance, evidence was not even a word in those days and if you dared disbelieve the mainstream supernatural event stories people would turn on you and satanic spirits would inflict evil upon you so you kept your gob shut and even claimed to see such events.

    The normal human being claim is indeed possible and far more logical, however if the humble goat herders of the day were expected to believe Jesus was a supernatural God through his supposed resurrection. Therefore Jesus’s normality must be called into question but also must be accepted due to God’s enormous sacrifice and his powers to send these unlovable heathens to a Satanic hell after death on Earth. These poor simple peasant folk would be literally shaking in their boots and dared not question the doctrine, but funnily enough the same ignorance has survived to today.

    Liked by 1 person

      1. The made up story is also my best bet and more than possible because these bronze age people were basically direct descendants from the stone age people and their gods, hence the much older Pagan gods.

        In simplistic terms my take on this is that it did not take long for some bright spark to realise the power of these gods and the more recent Judaism that was being embraced by the Roman rulers and the potential power that could be had by creating a more modern less violent and more lovable god especially of the back of the already revered but old century violent Yahweh. (you get rebellious conspiracy merchants in any century, look at what we have to suffer today)

        It was obviously much easier to fool most of the people in those days considering the dependence on the supernatural by everyone to answer all their questions about the natural world, (look at Trumps followers) hence the Bible was written only by Christians claiming divine guidance through exposing so called prophecies and advanced knowledge, I expect it was a ploy to claim followers from the mainstream paganism, Judaism and any other religions considering atheism did not exist then.

        Written over many decades the Bible was clearly collaborative fiction and of course as they were bronze age writers it is accompanied with invented science, mythical stories and historic ignorance.

        Liked by 2 people

    1. Sorry stevo, you don’t get to rewrite history just because you do not like it.

      Sure, the temple of Solomon never existed eh? The accounts in Kings and CHRONICLES which are as good as any government document today are not accurate eh? Herod and Pilate never ruled eh? Abraham Lincoln is mere fiction eh? Queen Esther never had her life in danger by that devil Haman eh? Hitler never lit a match eh? Obama was never president eh? Newton never wrote Amazing grace eh? Elephants in Genesis evolved from potatoes eh? Darwin did not prove the accuracy of the ‘kinds’ eh? Oh yes he did.

      See how reality works? Its history. It’s fact. Deal with it. Don’t be an enemy of common sense and true science.

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      1. In what respect is Steve ”rewriting history”?

        Then bible has undergone numerous edits/redaction ( to the supposed ‘inspired word of God’). Are you, therefore, asserting that these actions (edits/ redaction) were also God-Inspired?

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Ark, rewriting as in SAYING the accounts of history never happened. How many times do I need to set the record straight:

          Did Solomon live? Did he not say ‘cut the baby in half?’ Did he not build a temple? Did not King Darius live and summon Daniel? Was not Jerusalem sacked? Was there not an exodus and exile? We do not have the privilege of selecting like a salad bar what parts of history we may enter into the record as true. It is all true.

          I have been making this point for decades. Because white men hung black men on ropes does not give me the authority to say it never happened. Because some Germans killed Jews does not give me the right to say it did not happen.

          There is not one reason NOT to believe that King David sent Uriah into battle. No good reason to not believe Xerxes lived and died. It is all true, which gives the New testament all the credulity necessary.

          As to changes etc, the best available is the kjv (no copyright) which btw, has long been despised by the Roman church. (see the preface for this reason)

          A good reason is there must be men who would not be satisfied, and who thought their words were of more weight than God’s, but nothing new here, for the seed plot of wickedness has long been planted by he who said: ‘did God REALLY say that?’ I’m guessing you know the reference.

          tkx for allowing me to indulge.

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          1. But it was the Catholic bible that came first and the Protestants who edited the original and rejected several books.
            So why do you not accept the original inspired Word of God?

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Only thing I’ll say is i love the name Jerome.

            Have a brother that carries that name. 😉

            (but that discussion of translations, etc is a stairway that never ends)

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          3. But you stated; My emphasis.

            As to changes etc, the best available is the kjv (no copyright) which btw, has long been despised by the Roman church. (see the preface for this reason)

            The ”Roman church” was responsible for the original compilation – after they collected all the texts that were circulating at the time and decided what was the Inspired Word of God and compiled the bible.
            Martin Luther jettisoned 7 of these books Inspired by God, if I’m not mistaken?
            So, yes, it appears you have rejected the original Inspired Word of God.

            Liked by 1 person

          4. Hmm ark.

            I believe Moses lived, Joshua used trumpets and a city fell. I believe Daniel intrepid dreams perfectly. I believe the Baptist lost his head by a woman’s desire and a kings oath. I believe Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.

            So tell me, honestly, who rejects God’s word? And btw, these accts are available in any translation.

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          5. Once again. Luther rejected 7 books of The canon, and these Inspired Words of God were not included in the Protestant bible

            You stated:

            the best available is the kjv

            Therefore, you reject 7 entire books that are considered to be the Inspired Word of God.
            Why do you reject these 7 books; ergo reject the original Inspired Word of God?

            Liked by 1 person

          6. What’s your beef with me ark when you should be asking Marty why he did what he did?

            His understanding of scripture was a tad weak anyway. 😉

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          7. I am just curious why you accept the KJV knowing that it is not the complete Inspired Word of God.
            And I know why Luther did what he did – and his argument was wrong.
            So, once more, why do you reject the complete Inspired word of God?

            Liked by 1 person

          8. Sorry neighbor/ you are asking the wrong question. There is no book on earth (as source material) that carries the weight of the 1611.

            It is majestic in its simplicity and pearl like in its depth. Layer upon layer of information which reads from school primers to advanced study in all disciplines.

            Archaeology. Science. Botany. Mathematics. History. Geography. Agriculture. Law. Rebellion. Death. Life. Astronomy. Poetry. Romance.

            It’s a book of life actually, smooth skin and warts. Without apology it brings an arrow to our hearts and minds. The monarch of books, the 1611/ nothing on earth can even come close, that’s why I don’t care about all others.

            And oh, the genealogy’s: Methuselah 969/ Moses 120/ and us today, around a few scores- and scripture explains these discrepancies-

            A man can spend a lifetime focusing what is wrong- and never take a minute to think about what’s right.

            I’d like to focus on what’s right/ and btw/ laugh if you will- but I’m certain the earth does not move- as in King Everest- imagine if Sir Edmund had to deal with a mountain that moved under his feet. Sheesh. And yes, science and scripture agrees on this.

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          9. Give me a double hmmm bartender, on the rocks.

            Since you then have ‘accepted’ them ark, then please lecture further on the doctrines of propitiation vs atonement- justification through faith vs works/ the exodus (Gk decease) of Christ Himself and the terms and duration- the purpose of recorded names as to the genealogy of Joseph and why Mary/ the throne of God vs the throne of David- explain the necessary of WHY modern ships are built according to the dimensions of the ark of Noah –

            I could go on but you get the point. I don’t think you are in a safe position to lecture believers- just sayin- and I will not lecture you re F-stops and aperatures that give that globe like finish.

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          10. I simply cannot understand why you continue to avoid the main point for some reason?
            Let’s look at the evidence:
            The KJV is short seven books .
            These were left out of the Protestant ‘bible’ on the say so of Luther – whose reasoning was faulty – and from your allusion to Jerome you know exactly what I am talking about, don’t you?

            That you continue to avoid answering is telling and as you seem to know the reason it is also damning.
            So let’s ditch Luther and his erroneous reasoning for now; just tell me why you reject the 7 God Inspired books that are not included in the incomplete canon of the KJV?

            Liked by 2 people

          11. Per your post ark/ no sense traveling too far off road.

            What version of scriptures do you find fault in presenting He from Nazareth? I’m pretty sure both Luther and Jerome agreed.

            Then there is the book of Enoch- clearly mentioned in scripture- yet not included even in the 1611. So I have no problem with the Maccabees/ but both Martin and Jerome have to answer for their work. As will you.

            Still, the kjv, above all.

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          12. I have nothing to ”answer for”.
            Again … why do you reject the God Inspired seven books that are part of the original canon in favour of the expurgated and somewhat bastardized version?

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          13. Trying to be polite here ark, (as opposed to your regular suspects who salivate at every chance to mock your faithful contributor who is for the most part decent) but you play a tune that is oh so irrelevant.

            I mentioned already bout the book of Enoch/ an inspired work yet not included.

            You would discount Genesis in the Vulgate or 1611/ so you get my drift. The account of the ‘Hammers’ is so not necessary in aiding you in understanding how the Creator orders the circuits of the sun and moon.

            Let there be light!

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          14. So it’s settled,then. You reject the original God Inspired canon, and by extension I suppose one could say you are not a proper Christian.

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          15. Tkx ark for your time and attention, but can I just remind you that people thought the Lord Himself was a devil…. that Paul was a madman, etc, so perhaps I am in good company.

            But a ‘proper’ Christian is subject to interpretation.

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          16. But a ‘proper’ Christian is subject to interpretation.

            Hallelujah!
            Exactly Spot on, CS. And this is one reason why there are 10s of thousands of different Christian sects all with their own individual take , including Christians such as the Christadelphians.

            In essences there is no overriding one size fits all definition, just as there is nothing definitive about so-called God Inspired Scripture.

            It is nice that for once we actually agree about something on this topic.
            It has been interesting. Thanks CS.

            Liked by 1 person

          17. Your welcome. I also agree that ‘one size does not fit all,’ as that would be rather boring.

            May I suggest though that in your future considerations, you take note of what believers have in common as opposed to differences.

            The more I grow, I become more tolerant of other people’s ignorance. Ie, the spring ball thing- people have simply not thought sincerely about what assumptions they make.

            But sure no problem happy to provide another view.

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          18. I’m well aware nan that many believers act like immature brats, I can say ‘God bless them’ from a distance, while hoping they grow.

            To be fair, there are just as many atheists who speak with forked tongues.

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          19. Note I said to be fair ark. There are comedians, scientists so-called, actors, professors, MD’s, deli clerks, carpenters, musicians, etc, who are clueless about many things while also spewing forth more vulgarity than Mt Etna, hence the forked tongue.

            Then there is Hollywood…..then there is politics. Enough blame to go around.

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          20. There are both Christians, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, agnostics, Gnostics, Amish, gay, straight, male, female, atheist, non atheist, atheistic scientists, non atheistic scientists, Christian scientists, who to be honest, speak with forked tongues.

            There are double minded miscreants of all stripes.

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          21. On this point I agree wholeheartedly.
            But was there something specific you were alluding to that prompted you to initially single out atheists?

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          22. All those fairy tales that have lasted for centuries! What an outstanding achievement!

            Even more noteworthy are the number of people that accept them as Truth. Wow.

            Liked by 2 people

          23. A nice moron at best ColonStorm with very poor reading comprehension… as Ark as adequately shown you and all of us here. 😄

            You don’t answer direct questions with relevant answers. Even your babbling non-sense you answer with cannot constitute any implicit answer either; you don’t ever elaborate specifically on those obscure answers that brain of yours invents! Hence, you never “leave well enough alone” because your answers are not only NOT well enough, they don’t pertain to the content of the question asked of you! What’s MORE insanely funny is that you can’t even see this, but everyone else does. 😄

            Liked by 1 person

          24. Are you absolutely positive they are insults CS? 😄 Don’t think TOO hard. That little hamster in your echoing cranium might collapse and get tossed off the hamster-wheel, getting hurt. Then we’d all be in serious trouble here! 😱 Who’d keep us all from falling off the edge of Earth!? 🤭

            P.S. Thanks for the compliment, but it’s never necessary, especially when disingenuous and coming from a mental-illness. 😉

            Liked by 1 person

    1. Ark here is probably reeling at you nan, WHY must you involve things that only promote your ignorance?

      Yep, the go to line: off the edge!
      Sorry ark, but u should be fair and tell nan WHY do you persist in this line?

      (Have to say though since I was referenced, when did u ever see water stop at an edge? There is no edge, but rest assured, even mighty K-2 agrees with me, as it has not moved since its birth.

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      1. I think you’re mixed up a bit, CS. Maybe today’s Sunday sermon (that you DID listen to, right?) mangled your brain a bit.

        Just to be clear, I’m not the one who was kicked out of the Flat Earth group … it was whoever wrote the meme. But I do feel the question has merit. 🙂

        What? No edge? So this would mean the (flat) earth continues on forever and ever and ever and ever? IOW, you can just keep walking and never reach an end? If so, how do you make your way back home?!!?

        Liked by 2 people

        1. NO, NO, NO, Nan! The edge of the earth is a massive ice wall which is VERY heavily guarded by NASA scientists and the like who prevent common idjits like you ‘n me from EVER getting near it. I truly, truly wish you’d get your facts straight. Jeebus, already.

          Liked by 2 people

          1. You need to stop listening to scientists and other such fools! Instead, listen to creationists. They are the ONLY ones who are smart. The last creationist I talked to told me this: Man. Woman. Person. Camera. TV. My god, Nan! How smarter can a person get???!!! Really!

            Liked by 3 people

      2. I just want to perfectly clear that, you are asserting the bible is /contains the word of Yahweh (God).
        If this is correct, then a straightforward ‘yes’ will suffice.
        Thanks.

        Liked by 1 person

        1. To be clear ark, and hope you appreciate the distinction, but your Yahweh reference is only relevant as it relates to Israel, whereas God, as over all and above, has to do with ALL nations.

          One God, different relationships.

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          1. El Shaddai, Abraham’s God of the breast/ El Elyon, God most High/ Jehovah Jireh, etc, and of course we have the disciple John being near at the bosom of the Lord Himself/

            The distinctions are the most worthy of study. But yes, from Genesis on, every word of God is good, very good even.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Do you consider Jesus to be Yahweh in human form?

            So you believe the bible is the word God even though it has gone through several redactions, including jettisoning certain ”books” that were deemed not worthy of inclusion?

            Liked by 1 person

  12. CS:

    You said “imagine if Sir Edmund had to deal with a mountain that moved under his feet”.

    Is that an unacceptance of the rotation of the Earth on its own axis, and movement around the ancient God known to many as Sol? A rejection of satellites and moonshots and ballistic missilery, of navigation by artificial stars and such?

    Interesting thought … surely it’s God that holds therm up, rather than applied mathematics? Sheesh … discount the church-based ignorance that Columbus is credited with discrediting—even the ancients (Greece) knew the Earth was a ball and had a pretty good idea of it’s size (Eratosthenes …)

    Sure, our planet appears flat. Does too. Can’t argue there.
    I imagine that Hillary didn’t see a ball when he looked out from the summit of Everest, but not seeing the ball doesn’t mean it isn’t a ball. No more than seeing a flat plain in all directions means the whole world is simply a flat plane.

    Sciences, not the Bible, have given us a God’s eye perspective. (But all is part of God’s Great Plan, He knew even before The Creation that they would.) (Couldn’t otherwise, could they?)

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Argus, and I’m quite sure that ColonStorm would purport that all the thousands (millions?) of authentic images of Earth’s shape/sphere taken from manned spacecraft (the ISS) and satellites in low-orbit around Earth are all fabricated in a great conspiracy big ALL space-faring nations too, huh? 😆 One example of those countless images…

      How can everyone be in on the hoax AND not one single person blow the whistle? But then, I’m quite sure CS doesn’t logically think that far through his faulty cognition… or outright denial. 😉

      Liked by 3 people

        1. Lol… immediately! In fact, since the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old and all surviving land mammals about 66-million years… shouldn’t all creatures in the lower half of the Southern Hemisphere already be gone!? 🤔

          Liked by 2 people

          1. Leave us alone, you bully~where do you think bats were invented, hey? And you thought they were flying mice—which when they migrated north took their foul habits with them?
            (Foul? Well … what else happens when you hang upside down and have a poop, hmmm?)

            So when this planet has a God-quake and in a fit of indignation* He flips us over … we southerners will have it made. See, Big G thinks of everything. (But thing look grim (quite shitty, in fact) for you northerners.

            * Ignore His prophets and terrible things befall. (Oops, typo: that word is correctly spelt ‘profits’.)

            Liked by 1 person

          2. 🤣 There must be some type of “medicinal” weedy plant or mu(shroom) that grows upside down or hanging—like your poopy bats—that you Kiwis ingest or smoke 🥴 cuz any “flipping over” I know about is with Mom’s flapjacks/pancakes or when Lovers get tired/bored of exciting views of a frontside or backside, know whatta I mean sexy jellybean? 😈 Now THOSE heated moments are God-quaking and Earth-shaking! 🤭

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