107 thoughts on “Oh, for gods’ sake!”

          1. Here, just in case he doesn’t free it:

            Hi Patrick

            Regarding evidence, you say above What would make such a claim substantiated?

            That’s quite easy to answer: if the ‘speaker’ provided information not already known to the ‘hearer.’ Naturally, to demonstrate that the ‘hearer’ hasn’t simply made a lucky guess at something, a one-off so to say, the test would have to be repeated many times. A self-generated delusion (a pot plant talking to you, for example) cannot contain information you don’t already have because you are generating it. However, if the ‘hearer’ can repeatedly provide information he/she could never possibly have known, verifiable things outside their experience, then we can go a long way to ruling out a self-generated delusion.

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    2. Exactly! Place those claiming to have a close personal relationship with Jesus in an exam room and ask them to draw a complete family tree (including dates of birth and death) of their Lord and Savior on a sheet of paper and let’s see if any of them match.

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  2. I replied there:

    “Ark is right; a claim – any claim anyone makes about anything – remains a claim that may or may not be the case unless it meets the requirement of being substantiated by facts or independent information. Claims are not evidence. You have conflated the meaning to be the same for both and this is not true. I presume the basis of any conversation between people rests on both parties granting what’s true to be more important than any single position. A position is not strengthened with more claims; a position IS strengthened by evidence in its favor.”

    Let’s see if it passes moderation.

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  3. An astute attorney would through that supposition out of the courtroom as ‘evidence.’ Any fool can lay claim to ‘God spoke to me.’ Heck, Hitler made the claim as it were.

    However, if I am reading the words of scripture- then I am certain this same word is spoken to all- that is- anybody who hears it/ problem is most people are deaf.

    ‘Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world,’ is God speaking to me. It’s far simpler than most people making the claim to ‘special’ revelation.

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    1. Collins is claiming Jesus speaks to him (directly, not through the bible) and is asserting that merely stating this is evidence that it happens.
      He has no basic grasp of evidence.

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      1. Ask him what information Jesus has given him. If there is nothing new, nothing he could never have known through his own experience, then what he’s describing is a self-generated delusion.

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        1. @ John Z
          He has now ended our discussion and refused to release my final reply to his last comment.
          As you may have read on his post he redacted my comments omitting several examples of what constitutes evidence.

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          2. It is truly painful at times reading what these people write, especially when you stop to consider they indoctrinate this nonsense into kids.
            Did you read Argus’s post?

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      2. When the three witnessed firsthand the transfiguration- they SAW- then spoke what they saw/ this is good as evidence by me.

        We always emphasize the wrong things/ they had NO reason to distort/ lie/ embellish the account. Their word was good. Good men can be trusted.

        I would take their words over any modern newsman/ weather forecaster/ or any politician.

        And no/ please don’t refer to ANY clown and their lying or pseudo crap such as Mormonism/ ko-ran/ Baker Eddy, etc

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        2. “Their word was good. Good men can be trusted.”

          Sorry, @CrapulentStream, your “word” is faulty. Faulty men can’t be trusted.

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        3. CS,

          There are signed affidavits and biographical histories of the people who witnessed seeing those golden plates and none of them recanted; which is way more evidence than we have for the anonymous authors who claimed they received their information from anonymous people who claimed they knew the people who claimed to have have witnessed the transfiguration of Christ.

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          1. That’s nice Ron.

            Every attempt to supplant Gods word has failed miserably.

            Btw, did you know that the KJV 1611 has no copyright? So go ahead and reprint it- so unlike all charlatans who lay claim to ‘special revelation.’

            The Bible is the ONLY credible source material for creation/history/ and mans future.

            It is all true- no embellishments needs.

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          2. Except that the first edition featured the commandment:
            Thou shall commit adultery.

            Now, there’s an interesting take on your god’s word, don’t you think so CS?

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          7. Right ron, there is NO difference between the characters Esther, aka, Hadassah, and Haman.

            There is NO difference between King Herod and Mordecai.

            No difference between Daniel and his revealing of dreams and Neil DeGrasse Tyson?

            I’ll take my scholarly and truthful friends every time. You can keep your lying science friends and all men who have assaulted good people.

            Herod lives today through evil offspring, but truth is so rare yet is obviously seen.

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          9. Yes, I’ve named them before. You know, the modern heroes of evolution and pseudo science

            The ones who claim knowledge into ‘billions and billions of years…………’ Something purely speculative but only full of unprovable data.

            Lying scientists, yes.

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          11. How many times do I have to explain myself? ADAPTATION is not evolution as preached by modernists. I’m strictly speaking of sciences interpretation of evolution apart from the Giver of life.

            THAT is the lie. All adherents therefore………..but hey, it’s no surprise that we read: ‘let God be true, and every man a liar.’

            It’s not that man cannot be occasionally truthful- but by contrast, God is true- ALL the time.

            But to be fair, I do despise modern science as in Bill Nye the science fraud- who says with his starched bow tie which chokes his air- that ‘ships disappear over the curve at sea…………………at three miles………..’ a point so contrary to fact, logic, and common sense that it hardly needs addressed.………’

            This is a lying scientist, and any person worth his salt would investigate his claim and cite him for malfeasance.

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          12. I’m strictly speaking of sciences interpretation of evolution apart from the Giver of life.

            Except that you cannot offer a single piece of evidence for this ”giver of life”.

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          13. In order to argue against something you must first understand what it is you are arguing against, CS.

            Evolution is defined as change in heritable characteristics over successive generations — a readily observable and indisputable fact.

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          14. From page 325 of The Oxford Bible Commentary:

            E. Genre and Purpose. 1. The blatant historical difficulties, the internal inconsistencies, the pronounced symmetry of themes and events, the plenitude of quoted dialogue, and the gross exaggeration in the reporting of numbers (involving time, money, and people) all point to Esther as a work of fiction, its vivid characters (except for Xerxes) being the product of the author’s creative imagination.

            2. Esther has long been called a ‘Diaspora novella’ . . . Like the Joseph story in Genesis and the book of David, it is a fictional piece of prose writing involving the interaction between foreigners and Hebrew/Jews.

            https://books.google.ca/books?id=DWUTDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA325&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=true

            And based on this tale, the Jewish religion celebrates the slaughter of 75,000 fictional people, just as it celebrates the fictional death of all the first-born sons of Egypt and fictional slaughter of all the territories it’s practitioners never conquered in ancient times.

            What a splendid moral guide you follow, CS.

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          15. Tks for pointing out Ron that you are referring to others opinions by way of commentaries.

            For every point made from scripture- you will find a hundred that says ‘it ain’t so….’

            Do you really think that u are bringing something new to the table, when for years on end people have said: ‘Noah never lived, there was no flood, Daniel did not interpret dreams, Esther was a fraud, there was no Exodus, the Baptist was a lunatic, Pilate never washed his hands, Saul/Paul was but a tale/ his epistles are useless, no Golgotha, no cock crowing , no Patmos-

            Do you see the point? Anybody can write a commentary and fill it so it goes to the willing market of itching ears- so what.

            But aah! Scripture! That time tested and historically accurate presentation explaining mans past and future.

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          16. A claim remains a claim unless it is supported by evidence.
            In the case of the tale of Noah, we have the evidence that flatly refutes the biblical tale.
            You cannot produce scientific/geological evidence to demonstrate the veracity of the tale.

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          17. Well, that’s precisely what I’ve been alluding to, CS. Anybody can write a book and call them the “words of God”. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating: can the words attributed to said god be backed up with empirical evidence. And in your case, the answer is no, they can’t. There is not a shred of historical evidence corroborating the tall tales found within your holy text, let alone the existence of a supernatural entity. And that doesn’t even touch upon the abhorrent morality attributed to this divine entity.

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          18. No Ron. ANYBODY could not have written the scriptures.

            66 books. One concrete accord. Consistent in every way. Things written unbeknownst to the writer.

            Their mission was to only show fidelity to the text. Does the term FAITHFUL MEN mean anything to you?

            Go ahead and say you do not like the message or the history- but please do not show your ignorance in stating it is not accurate.

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          19. LOL

            Sixty-six book, eh? Your Catholic friends might beg to differ, because their one, true “word of God” contains 73 books. And Luther wasn’t happy with the “divinely inspired words” of Hebrews, James (an “epistle of straw”), Jude or Revelation either. Other sects have other canons and Judaism doesn’t recognize any of the NT books as scripture, so you’re already off to a rocky start.

            As to being of one concrete accord, one need only read them carefully to see this is not the case. Here is wisdon: Let him that hath understanding use google search and reckon the number of the contradictions, for it is too large a number to list in a comment box.

            But you’re correct about one thing: the authors wrote about things unbeknownst to them, and their ignorance of biology, cosmology, epidemiology, geology, geography, meteorology, physics, psychology, mathematics and history undermines any claims to their having superior insights into the workings of the universe. So, if I can’t trust them to report accurately on the things I can fully investigate, why would I trust them to report accurately on the things I can’t? Moreover, it’s difficult enough to determine the trustworhiness of people we know and associate with on a daily basis, so how could we positively establish the faithfulness of authors we’ve never met, let alone nameless men with religious agendas centuries removed from the present?

            The biblical apologist built his house on a foundation of theological sand. And when the Internet came and the winds of skepticism blew and beat against his house, it fell with a great crash.

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          20. Truly hilarious Ron. So what if Luther called James ‘straw.’ That’s his problem, and if any body is stupid enough to listen to him…..

            As to the writers being scientifically ignorant? Five laughs. I’ll take the cosmology of Job over 10,000 degrasses.

            I would bet my house that ALL modern science frauds are clueless as to the ‘foundations of the earth,’ and that the earth sits IN the water- and that the world (earth and Seas) were founded upon the floods, something the ‘goats men’ knew all about.

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          21. Well, apparently Luther found the ear of enough stupid people to mobilize millions of Europeans to go out and love each other to death in the name of Christ for 30 years.

            Sure, you’ll take the cosmology of Job over 10,000 NDTs because there’s no personal cost to do so. But what about when you require urgent medical attention? Will you ask the elders to lay their hands on you in prayer, or will you ask to be taken to the nearest hospital and seek the help of trained medical practitioners? And why are you posting on a blog on the Internet? Why not just ask God to telepathically transmit your thoughts to fellow believers via the holy spook?

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          22. Why do I post? Why do people milk cows, build roads, eat, sleep?

            Seems you have me confused with people who actually know how to read and comprehend. Only difference, I recognize the Creator of the brain.

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          23. Do you really need me to explain to you why people milk cows, build roads and take care of their physical needs? Or are you just littering the field with more silly questions to divert attention from the fact you don’t wish to confront the questions left in my previous comments?

            But perhaps you’re right: I did have you confused with people who actually know how to read and comprehend. My bad.

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          24. Anybody can write the Bible? Really Ron?

            I would bet my life that ANYBODY could not have written the Bible. Case closed.

            You are therefore pronounced guilty of being preposterous.

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          27. Matt Dillahunty has said, he could write a better version of the bible simply by including a commandment that stated; Thou shalt not own another human being.

            And he is correct.

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          28. Yeah ok ark-
            Tell Matt to ACCURATELY record the genealogies of the kings-dates/years/ tell him to describe perfectly the construction of Solomon’s temple.

            Trell him to record down to the day the life and times of Methuselah at 969/ Moses at 120/ tell him to explain WHY the discrepancy in years- (but I know)

            Face it. There is no other source material such as ‘in the beginning.’ It was not a tale from the crypt written by people who had nothing else to do/ it was not writtrn because people were superstitious/

            It is recorded as fact/ because it is true/ and please do not refer Matt D. to me, as I clean his clock with logic/facts/common sense/ and verifiable history- every time.

            He could only wish he had the mental acumen to write even one book. Tell him to start with Esther and try to improve it.

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          29. If Matthew could copy upwards of 600 verses from Mark and Luke did a similar hatchet job then Dillahunty is entitled to do a rewrite and include one very special and yet very straightforward and completely moral commandment that your meglomaniacal arsehat of a god couldn’t be bothered with.

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          32. Oh. Too bad.
            So you find ‘a wise son maketh a glad father’ distasteful?

            You think ‘rebellion is as witchcraft’ meaningless?

            You find that animals reproduce after their kind ignorant?

            You find the purposes for the sun and moon nothing but scorn?

            You may want to reconsider.

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          33. You think ‘rebellion is as witchcraft’ meaningless?

            So, you think the American Revolution was a horrid idea, huh? You think the N. American colonies should have just stuck with the Empire?

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          34. Then there is the ‘whiskey rebellion’ too.

            But try to stay focused. King Saul was abraded by Samuel for his self made idea of what he thought was ‘good’ sacrifice.

            The ‘rebellion’ you speak of is as far removed from my point as East from west.

            I could cite thousands of precepts/ judgements/ doctrines/ counsels/ from scripture that point to PROOF that people are lost as fog if they find no value in the pages.
            Heck, the 1st of Romans says as much.

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          36. No. You will never outclass a Sovereign God.
            He knows you better than you know yourself. He wired you after all, you know, neurons, attachments of sinew, and a tailbone for balance.

            His judgements are perfect. Yours and mine? Eh, not so much.

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          41. What do we mean by evidence?
            Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened. … Evidence is the information which is used in a court of law to try to prove something. Evidence is obtained from documents, objects, or witnesses.

            Now then:

            The Lord told Peter he would deny Him 3 times before the rooster crowed twice. This is EVIDENCE the Lord knows…..

            The woman said ’I have no husband!’ The Lotd knew she had five. He knew her well and good, and she told others about this body of EVIDENCE.

            But another concern for you as well, based on the description above: is the FACT that you have NO EVIDENCE- none/nula/ zero evidence that the world turns.

            See how easy evidence is and is not?

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          43. That’s funny.

            Reminds me of a Judge who declares to a jury: ‘now go adjudicate the case- but disregard ALL the evidence submitted to you regarding John D Smith who killed his wife Capote style, in cold blood, in front of 500 witnesses.’

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          45. Just because Paul claimed there were 500 witnesses doesn’t make it a fact. And unlike the signatories of the golden plates, Paul never identified his witnesses by name.

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          47. Not at all.
            One has to remember that the entire bible is built upon the fallacious claim it is the word of your god, Yahweh.

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          48. Where did I say that anybody could write the Bible, CS? That’s your straw man. I wrote anybody could write a book and call them the “words of God”. And it’s impossible for you to have missed it, because you replied to very comment in which it appears.

            On your about page you opine that “one of the noblest pursuits is to live a life without guile.”

            How about putting that ideal into practice by engaging in an honest dialogue?

            “If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see.”~Henry David Thoreau

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          49. If ANYBODY could write a book- and call it the word of God…….

            Yeah ok, like most people don’t know the difference between Luke Skywalker….. and Luke the Physician-

            Or Thomas the apostle- and Tom Thumb.

            Gods word has no competitor- but rest assured- your science heroes could only wish they were so inspired/ with their theories and such.

            The scriptures are not a collection of theories- they are historical facts – it’s no wonder people are uncomfortable with such resoluteness of thought.

            But Tkx for the ‘about’ visit.

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          50. Funny you should mention Luke Skywalker — because a Christianity Today article from 2015 cited a study in which 30% of British parents didn’t know Adam & Eve, David & Goliath, or the Good Samaritan were stories found in the Bible, but thought the following stories are or might be biblical stories:

            – Superman (27%),
            – Harry Potter (33%)
            – The Hunger Games (54%)

            That same article also cites a survey which found only 45% of regular church goers read the Bible more than once a week, 20% never read it at all and the rest read it only once or twice a month.

            https://www.christianitytoday.com/edstetzer/2015/july/epidemic-of-bible-illiteracy-in-our-churches.html

            And a survey taken two years later found that:

            – 10% of Americans have read none of the Bible
            – 13% have read only a few sentences
            – 30% have read only a few passages or stories
            – 15% have read at least half
            – 12% have read almost all of it
            – 11% have read all of it
            – 9% have read it more than once.

            https://lifewayresearch.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it

            In summary: over half of respondents have no clue what’s in the Bible and less than 33% have read more than half of it.

            Which means that God’s “word” (a fact-free assertion) not only garners little interest from 50% of those claiming to have a fondness for the Bible, but also faces formidable competitors in the works of fiction category.

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          51. Just goes to show Ron that many people who have deconverted- were no doubt salad bar believers- it’s a shame.

            (Sent u a comment at your place- maybe in spam)

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          52. To the contrary. It goes to show that the book failed to capture the readers’ interest and wasn’t as inspirational as it’s cracked up to be.

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          53. And yet……

            This same book which is allegedly historical fiction, has captured the attention of many an atheist- quite odd that an atheist would boast of knowing more ‘Bible’ than a believer.

            Just goes to show……..

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          54. That’s because a fair number of atheists started out as theists who abandoned their beliefs after beginning a critical in depth study of the Bible. 🙂

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      3. For Ark, ColorfulRainbowSprinkles, and Chris —

        Ever watched the excellent 2008 film The Brothers Bloom? It is one of my all-time, well-written and performed films. I’ve watched it about 8 or 10 times. Anyway, there is one incredibly profound truth the film and script illustrate vividly: just how much we humans LOVE, are utterly addicted to a mentally, emotionally stirring, moving or disturbing STORY… whether real and factual or not! This film illustrates time and again the flaws of the hyper-faithful or the stubborn deniers.

        Additionally, have you ever considered WHY the hyper or radical, metaphysical (divine) Believer becomes… well, hyper-radical or extreme with their evangelism or apologetics when it is supposed to be “personal” anyway? If you KNOW it to be true, then keep it to yourself, in your brain only and close to YOUR heart. Everything and everybody is already taken care of. Done. THE END. Think about that. 🤔

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        1. Prof, I think it’s existential in a very basic, primal way.

          It’s not enough for them — Robertson, Wel Mild, ChronicSnoozefest, et.al. — to merely personally believe. The fact that there exists those who don’t believe — like us — is somehow unbearable to them, a kind of existential “other” who will always represent a threat to their ideology.

          If that sounds fanciful and self-serving, well, so be it. But they need us, if only to define themselves against us; and they’re driven to try and convert the “other”, if only to validate their own belief system, and relieve themselves — temporarily — of that nagging suspicion that what they profess is all too untenable.

          But that’s enough sociological analysis for now. ( Haven’t seen The Brothers Bloom. Might check it out).

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          1. Exactly, Chris.
            If these half wits were truly so confident in their position why the constant need to defend it?
            Why the continual spewing of such flatulent garbage over ”The War on Christmas” or being the ”Most Persecuted Group in the Land” tra la la.

            Why , in the US, are atheists the least trusted group when they make up a small minority of the population?
            If everything is in their god’s hands why the Gehenna are they worried at all …. about anything?

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    2. @ComaBoy:
      “However, if I am reading the words of scripture…”

      Establishes nothing, because it’s based on the equally unfounded presupposition that scripture is “God’s Word.”

      All you’ve demonstrated is that evangelicals have trouble understanding what constitutes actual reliable evidence. Big accomplishment! (Problem is, most theists don’t read very well).

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          1. I’m picturing a team of experts combing the web looking for the best professional rebuttal, praying about it first, WWJD? Then hit send and hope for a miracle. God can touch you John, like a priest

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  5. I notice Collins failed to grasp the implications of that Thomas Szasz quote someone posted about schizophrenia and hearing God, but instead tried to pretzel it into saying something about the modern (secular) mindset.

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  6. Can you say… schizophrenia?

    …and someone actually claims that the dog speaking to you is direct evidence? Really?

    I admit I didn’t click the link, my tolerance for that sort of thing is somewhere near the “smash it with a club” reading on the scale.

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    1. HAH! With years experience working in the Psych/A&D field Shell, that is EXACTLY one of the (likely?) possibilities I always mention. Way too many religious followers simply DO NOT adequately understand what we now know factually about neurology and the human brain. Period. Add to their years/decades of constant indoctrination of Supernatural interventions (the Placebo-effect) coupled with peer-pressure or assimilation… and voilà, EVERYONE in the world who is an indoctrinated (programmed?) “religious” Believer (via blind Faith) hears the/their “God.”

      It isn’t rocket science or Quantum Physics. But it IS known factual neurology and psychology. 😉

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    2. Oh! And it may not be just schizophrenia. Modern advanced neurology, psychology, and all related cognitive sciences have FURTHER refined, discovered, and continually evolve/advance with MORE factual evidence and results as well as with successful treatments and/or rehab. 🙂

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  7. It’s good to know I’m batting a thousand for people who try to use the word “presupposition” non-ironically. You’re putting too much work into this, Ark. Should have asked him to demonstrate how someone can know his deity’s doing the talking and not a trickster deity or evil spirit, to the degree of certainty he’s demanding from naturalists. The short answer is: he can’t.

    He can’t even articulate a rule which would help people tell between a delusion and deity-speak. It’s why he has to try and ridicule John.

    If you look closely, you’ll see the double standard. Naturalists have to prove to philosophical certainty (that’s 100%, over all objections, reasonable or otherwise) that brains can’t understand deities. He, on the other hand, gets some magical dispensation of that burden. To be fair, though, he might not be doing this on purpose. When I believed, I did this all the damn time without thinking. I literally couldn’t see what I was doing.

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    1. Should have asked him to demonstrate how someone can know his deity’s doing the talking and not a trickster deity or evil spirit, to the degree of certainty he’s demanding from naturalists. The short answer is: he can’t.

      Aah …. but he believes he can, which is why he claims that he knows god talks to him because god talks to him all the time.
      According to Collins, that is not merely a claim but rock solid evidence.

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      1. I decided to leave a comment over at Collins’s blog.

        It hasn’t posted yet (it looks like he has default comment moderation), so I’d like to leave a copy of it here.

        Hello, Mr. Collins.

        I’ve read your post here, and I would have to say one concern of mine is echoed most closely by Mr. Wild. It’s something you might wish to consider more elaboration on. That is: how can a person be sure one is hearing a deity rather than something else?

        If I’m reading your post and comments correctly, it’s possible for someone to be mistaken about hearing from a divine source. “Does it sound like Jesus” seems like a sufficient question to ask, except there are multitudes of different faith beliefs within Christianity who feel like they can contradict each other and still answer, “Yes, I think the still small voice urging me to action sounds like Jesus.”

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  8. What is almost always misunderstood Ark, by both the Faith-Believer and Empirical-only advocate (non-Theist) is just how phenomenally powerful, adaptable, malleable, brilliant, creative, abstract-capable the/our human brain has become in 150,000 to 200,000 years. HOWEVER, it is equally vulnerable, gullible, fragile, super-slow to repair or heal, and can absolutely distort entirely a person’s perceptions of self, others, and its immediate environment.

    My point is this. Every single 7.6 billion human brains on Earth right now can hear or not hear some supernatural voice. It doesn’t mean that audio is also true and heard identically for all other 7.6—minus 1— billion other brains present on this one tiny Pale-blue rock in ONE tiny solar system, in ONE average system of billions and billions of other systems… all within billions perhaps trillions of other galaxies with Pale-blue rock planets in them!

    Why do so many people NOT think everything thoroughly through to its final, reasonable, cumulative end and consensus? Really!? Are so many THAT egocentric, that self-absorbed and do not comprehend the meaning of Orthodoxy in whatever size and number does not equal truth? Seriously!? 🙄

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    1. On a completely different subject—want to guess what subject specifically Ark? 😉 😛

      I am so tired and frustrated with my Dunners of north London I can’t see straight!!! 😠😞 Seriously? They can’t even defeat Olympiakos? Really!!!?

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    2. I think Collins religious attitudes/beliefs are the result of some form of trauma.
      I can’t vouchsafe this is as fact but he did lose his wife .
      It is certainly a familiar pattern.

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      1. Indeed. My conversion, on the other hand, had nothing to do with any trauma. It was a simple “Alright God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit, if you all are REAL and supreme over everything, everyone, here I am. Show me. And I truly mean it!” As you already know Ark, I gave them over 11 genuine years, faith, and work.

        Then the bottom completely fell out with the Missing Years and EVERYTHING surrounding its void—plausible, implausible, and non-existent. Now Christianity is not only untenable, but a complete farce and Greco-Roman sales & marketing scam from the 3rd thru 8th centuries. Just goes to show you… the Placebo-effect coupled with Peer-pressure/assimilation is an INCREDIBLY mind-distorting and programming virus.

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  9. I claim Allah is real cause He’s spoken to me. He claims Islam is a TrueFath and christianity is a false one. Really, he SAID this to me in a “voice.” The Koran backs me, and Allah, up on this. This is solid, truthful, inerrant evidence and I LOL at anyone foolish enough to doubt me.

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