David Robertson is on his high horse again with his latest ASK 36 post, where he takes questions apparently submitted by young people regarding Yahweh and all things Christian.
The topic this time around is transgender.
He opens the post with this ….
TEXT: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)
I posted this question .
How does your god – and you for that matter – regard intersex children in light of the above biblical text?
Ark
He has refused to publish it and deleted it even after I resubmitted.
Sometimes the hypocrisy of this loathsome individual makes my fillings ache.
A Tale Unfolds 
You are not a Christian so maybe your question is not from the target audience
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Still deserves an answer, don’t you think?
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Definitely
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Forget the flea for a minute. You are talking to me, who has a FAIR question for you.
When parents have their first child, some post a sign ‘it’s a boy,’ or ‘it’s a girl;’ etc, some pass out cigars.
So if it’s not boy or girl, male or female, what is it? If not one sex, then what? 2,3,10, 109? Who decides and why should what has been historically normal be bludgeoned?
Ever heard of a queen who was really a king? Even in your most vehement disagreement u must admit the validity of my points.
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What does your god ”say”?
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For the sake of argument ark- let’s leave the ‘spiritual’ component out.
Who does a stag deer seek to mate, and who does he fight to keep his competitors away? Nature has always been a fine teacher.
And no, please don’t bring ‘one celled’ beings into the discussion. ‘Transgender is your word for the day.
Why should 99% of the worlds societies be expected to cater to the whims of the 1% who by the way have the largest mouths.
Here’s a better question for you though to consider: when the hospital staff writes ‘male or female’ on the birth certificate, wouldn’t you think this is a good baseline for future references————–so when this person ‘decides’ 20 years later to change sex, he/she can be kindly referred to the date of birth and sex thereof?
It’s kind of like the same sex ‘marriage’ thing, with no disrespect intended to they who choose the same mates, just leave the word marriage alone, pick another word. How about ‘mate?’
My argument is consistent with nature, common sense, science, history, and of course scripture.
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Again … what does your god say, regarding intersex children?
After all, your god supposedly created us all in his image?
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Ark/doug-
I am trying to be polite in the midst of a serious topic.
There are weeds in your garden which steal vital nutrients from that which you want to bloom. Rarely does one ‘feed the weeds.’
The only ‘true’ intersexed children are a mother who has twins, one boy one girl, so there you go. Anything else will come later, by CHOICE and certainly not by birth.
But more to your point, and that which gives to why you deny it: sin brought forth all kinds of nasty stuff, like maggots. disease, etc…….. but surely you do not care about feeding maggots? And don’t get excited, I’m NOT equating transgender stuff as maggotry, just highlighting the results of sin, decay, and death.
But stealing, lying, corporate embezzling are done rather well by they who have no interest in ss or traands stuff, so there is enough blame to go around.
But bottom line, without a standard everything goes. Without a level, everything is crooked, and what it straight is purely subject to he with the cleverest imagination.
I’m guessing even scottie can find some agreement here.
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If you refuse to answer the question that I asked Robertson then you posts will be ignored.
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When you lookin the mirror CS, what do you see? Is that reflection of you exactly who “you” are, or is their more to that persona than his physical characteristics?
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CS,
Did you know there are same-sex pairings in the animal kingdom? If not, here’s a link, for your reference:
List of animals displaying homosexual behavior
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Yep. More than aware Ron of the attempted link between an untenable comparison.
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But it’s not untenable, CS. As you yourself stated; “Nature has always been a fine teacher.”
If God is truly the author of all that exists — as you insist — then God must also have been responsible for creating animals with same-sex instincts.
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Thanks for making a distinction Ron between man and animal. A very crucial difference.
HOWEVER, as the good book asserts, and nature would agree: the whole creation groans….even until now. The truth of that tale has barely been unfolded.
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Man is an animal — that’s the point. We share almost 99% of DNA sequence found in the chimp genome.
But even if that were not the case, it does not alleviate the fundamental theological problem: If God is responsible for everything in creation, then everything we find within that creation (including same-sex pairings and the groaning of creation) is ultimately attributable to God.
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…. and here comes the Free Will argument – and that’s not all folks! – followed by ”Let God be true and every man a liar.”
Damn … I could impersonate CS in blogland without breaking a sweat.
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Yes, but they never explain why an all-knowing God lacked the ability to create only the humans who use their free will to act in accordance with his will and/or refrained from creating those who would choose the opposite.
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Admit it, you just hate Jesus, don’t you?
I’ll bet you are already planning this year’s War on Christmas.
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No Ron sorry.
A parents whose instruction to his 10 yr old son to not ‘take his corvette’ is not responsible when the miscreant and his older friends kill an elderly woman on a fiery crash.
God is blameless. Furthermore- your .01% distinction is all that is needed- man may act like a beast/ but he is no ape.
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Didn’t Yahweh/Jesus wipe out humanity save for one soon to be incestuous family in a global flood?
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Nice. Did you hear about the man who hired an exterminator to rid his house of a million termites and mosquitos so he could live a healthy life?
Why is your life more valuable than a mosquito’s, and was it right to rid the house of the plague- for One man?
The ancillary answers are revealing, so careful how u respond.
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So you approve of genocide. Well done.
This tells its own story.
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The trouble is ark- you and I are neither qualified nor commanded to do such things.
It’s the potter and clay thing.
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I am relieved beyond measure that I am not qualified to do such things.
And kudos for at least not denying that Jesus/Yahweh was a genocidal maniac.
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Well we agree to your first sentence.
But you may want to study up on the dispensation of the grace of God.
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Perhaps you would like to enlighten me about this ”grace”?
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Sure. Read carefully the first 6 ch. of Romans- it answers rather well and to the point far better than I could.
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Give me the short version. I’m calling it a day just now and can’t be bothered to google or read a bible.
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Short version? Now that’s a miracle!
The nature of grace is favor awarded to they who have no right nor claim to it.
Ie, He justifies the ungodly. And if one is a recipient of such favor, would it not then make sense that he/she lived a life worthy of such extravagance. Seems so.
Now the crux of the matter: who is ungodly?
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So how exactly does this explain or excuse Jesus/Yahweh from being a meglomaniacal genocidal monster?
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You have every right to that opinion ark. Was it wrong for David to kill/ cut the head off Israel’s sworn enemy and make shift god of the Philistines who lived to snuff out God’s promise to preserve His people?
There is a price to be paid for such evil- but do know this- God is blameless- every time.
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Yes …. but how exactly does this explain or justify Jesus/Yahweh being a genocidal megalomaniac?
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Your analogy fails on two grounds.
First off, a responsible parent safeguards access to the Corvette so that no opportunity for events leading to a fiery crash is possible.
Second, and more importantly, Christian theology posits a God possessing ultimate knowledge. So if God already knows the outcome of all his actions and proceeds anyways, then God becomes responsible for taking those actions and has no one to blame but himself. As the saying goes: only a bad workman blames his tools.
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nature, if you care to read up on it by noted anthropologists, will state quite clearly that there is often a certain amount of cross-gender stuff that goes on. And not only cross gender, but cross species, as anyone who raises rabbits and cats finds out about very quickly.
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There are six common sexes in humans that don’t result in the death of the fetus. No versions of your religious texts are aware of this fact. If anything, it’s willful blindness to this fact.
The reason why such historical views need to be changed is because of new information. Just because an earlier mistake is more convenient doesn’t make it (1) right; or (2) worth keeping.
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So now genetic defects is your argument?
So a male is ‘another’ sex because he had warts from birth? Please, use your head and put away the useless theories of lying science.
And to nil your next question short and quick- Adam was made in the image of of God. Things went south.
Cain was then made in the image of a dad…… oops.
So don’t come bitchin that it is Gods fault there is killing- or sickness, death, or people born with syndromes.
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You have evidence of this ”Adam”?
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Sure I do ark. My source is as reliable as daylight.
Do you have any evidence it snowed 4 thousand years ago in Nepal?
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Can you produce ( the source of this) evidence for us please.
Me personally? No. But maybe someone who specializes in weather, and geology would probably be able to offer a reasonable answer.
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Tkx for that.
And it is PRECISELY this argument which only strengthens my point.
There are OTHERS who can supply the correct information. While there is NOT ONE person alive who has evidence it snowed…….
…..we can be sure it in fact snowed. The testimony of good men have left their legacy.
Today we have courthouses and recorders of deeds-
Scripture is the greatest of recorded deeds.
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Ah .. so you have no evidence then.,
Why didn’t you just say
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A person is a different sex because that person has genetic differences. They’re not necessarily defects, but to be fair, I can understand why you have to feel that way. Acknowledging the existence of people that don’t fit your pseudo-biblical mold might lead to a broader acceptance of truth and reality.
And you totally didn’t guess my next question. It’s actually: have you even started reading your bible yet? From our previous interaction, you demonstrated that you don’t even know the half of what’s in it.
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Don’t make me laugh Bizness. I no doubt forgot more than u will ever know regarding God’s word.
And what I still know just may actually surprise you, but rest assured, I have nature, true science, facts, logic, common sense, and scripture on my side, and that side is infallible truth.
But did you hear about the whitetail deer who gave birth to a baboon? Didn’t think so, and in this observation destroys the theory of atheism and godlessness.
But have a nice day.
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All you’re proving is that you have no clue what you’re talking about here, CS. The only person claiming deer can give birth to baboons is you. Everyone else on the thread knows better.
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That’s nice serious.
And u are obviously agreeing that God made the kinds- not Darwin, so Tkx.
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Not really, but I can see why you’d be telling yourself this.
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I think it a distinct possibility a baboon gave birth to CS.
One has to feel an enormous amount of sympathy for the baboon.
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@DefectiveUnit strikes again:
“Adam was made in the image of of [sic] God.”
And:
“So don’t come bitchin [sic] that it is Gods [sic] fault…”
Gee, God must be so grateful to have such illiterate wankers speaking on His behalf.🤓
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“But did you hear about the whitetail deer who gave birth to a baboon?”
“BWAHAHAHAHA! @DefectiveUnit doesn’t understand the concept of descent with modification.
Ark, did Spike Milligan take inspiration from creationists when he wrote characters like Bluebottle and Eccles, do you know?
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I’m not Ark. I’m pretty sure that creationism was small and insignificant back in the heyday of the Goon Show.
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He is a truly a vile excuse for a human being.
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The child decides. They tell US who they are. We just have to pay attention.
In its own way it’s no different than having a life long aversion to cabbage, or a dislike of horses, or any of the other myriad choices our body takes on. It’s not a choice, it’s the way we’re constructed.
Kids demonstrate their talents, likes and dislikes, very early on. One baby will smile all over at Beethoven, another will scream bloody murder. One child hates peas (and always will), but can’t get enough of brussels sprouts. One sister wants to become a writer (and does), the other is a ballerina. We don’t send them for conversion therapy, they are who they are. Why should it be so alarming to realize that the baby you gave birth to may look like a little boy but feels like a little girl? I suspect a lot of the alarm comes from “I must have done something wrong…” which is like blaming yourself because your child is nearsighted.
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Hi, Ark, and Judy..Here I am popping up on your blog, Ark. 🙂
Guys, I don’t think this issue has anything to do with the Bible, really. There are people in the church all over the map in this area. Personally, I have alot of reservations about this whole thing when it comes to young kids. I would feel the same if I were a non theist, BTW.
How does a young child sometimes as little as three or four years old determine what it might feel like to be a member of the opposite sex?? What is this really based on.
When, I was a little girl, I was very non typical. I didn’t care for pink or glittery things. I had no real interest in dolls or my housekeeping set. I did not like to wear a dress. I was very active and prefered physical outdoor kind of activities. Many of my friends were little boys, etc.
Yet, by the time I grew to be an older adolescent, my interests had expanded. Although, to this day, I’m more comfortable in slacks, and I love outdoorsy active things. I’m married, BTW, with three kids, and eight grandchildren. 🙂
For me, the question is why is the young child identifying with the opposite sex? Is this truly biologically based or is something else going which therapy might uncover.
It is a fact, that the vast majority of these kids will desist from gender confusion as they go through adolescence. I worry that alot of harm might be done by parents that are well meaning, but unknowingly might be feeding into this.
We are not certain of the long term effects of things like puberty blockers and then later on same sex hormonal therapy.
But, it is virtually certain that once kids are started down this path, they almost never will desist. It seems to me that therapy in conjunction with “watchful waiting” is a better approach when kids are quite young.
Also, I think among some young teens, it has also become a fad to identify as “non-binary.”
My opinion might change over time, but this is where I’m at right now.
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How do you think you would respond if you were forced into therapy to change your personality, the core of what makes you, you? Welcome to a life of depression. Therapy simply does not change who you are. Even someone as pious and high profile in his church like Elizabeth Smarts father had suppressed and lived an unfulfilled, conflicted life as a gay man in a straight relationship. It takes its toll.
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Becky, kids change. The secret is to LET them decide. Not dash about saying, “oh, he’ll grow out of it, won’t you, honey?” which only sets up serious roadblocks in both directions. It also messes with their heads at a time when they really don’t know who or WHAT they are.
Frankly, I can’t imagine what it must be like to feel like a little boy (not being one, and all), it’s one of those things you either know or you don’t know. But neither can I imagine what it must be like to be two years old and know that that new baby is a boy or a girl just by looking at their face. They are still in a transitional stage between baby and child, and they haven’t lost that strange ability to talk to babies and know boy baby from girl baby.
And let’s face it, there is nothing more mortifying to a child than to be dismissed with ‘he’ll get over it.” as if it were a case of measles…
It may also be that you’re seeing young people who have been given tacit permission by society to explore their own sexuality, outside the box, if you will. No harm in that, and it might save them some time on the Psychiatrist Couch later on.
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@Becky
You see, MY post isn’t about transgender, and you would have picked this up if you had paid attention instead of grabbing your fundamentalist stick and ran about beating the Burning Bush.
MY post is regarding your vile holy book and the quote from Genesis regarding your god, Yahweh.
Perhaps you would like to read the post and try to answer the question I asked David Robertson?
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That’s what I thought. I was wondering ‘where are the defenders?’ of (Robertson) not posting your question. That is why I stopped wasting my time with them. This happens often.
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👏👏👏
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Last week I commented on a site where the writer said “to win millennials back to Jesus, were going to have to fight!” I simply replied that part of the problem in winning that is millennials now have access to information. The comment immediately disappeared and I was blocked. Controlling the dialog and withholding any opposing views IS the fight. They have nothing more to offer than censure. I have been banned from Robertson and I’m better off. I just wish believers could see openly who he really is.
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He truly is a nasty little man.
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And seriously, he is either flat out lying disingenuous, or stupid. He can’t even follow along for the sake of understanding another viewpoint.
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His methodology suggests stupid comes first, which might suggest he wouldn’t understand what disengenuity means and this would also dismiss lying.
But stupidity must run in the family as his son is a minister or studying to be one.
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ARK:
Hardly stupid — he’s found the font and is milking it for all he can get. And it delivers. He may be warped, tiwsted, mistaken … but not stupid.
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Guys, again I’m open to listen and to think more deeply about this. I see this as a very different issue than sexual orientation. And, people that are born inter-sexed really have an objective biological basis for this condition.
I’m not so certain in terms of gender dysphoria. How is this very different than from, say, body dysmorphic
disorder?
I think people should be treated with kindness and respect, no matter what. And, I think if an adult wants to live as a member of the opposite sex, receive surgical intervention, or cross sex hormones, this is their free choice.
However, I feel alot more cautious relating to children and even older adolescents who I think have not reached a mature age of informed consent or judgement. rom
To me, I think it better if a young child receives therapy to be further certain that there are no underlying issues going on such as family dysfunction, depression, abuse, perhaps even bullying at school because the child is exhibiting non typical gender kinds of behavior. This is probably more an issue for a boy than a “tomboyish” kind of girl, like me. 🙂
It’s important to understand what might be contributing factors to gender dysphoria rather than to jump the gun and simply assume that this is truly someone who has a “girl’s brain trapped in a boy’s body.” Again, I’m not even sure what this really means.
Anyway, appreciate the discussion. Will leave it at that.
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Again … how about answering the question.
How does your god feel about intersex children in light of the Genesis quote?
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“We also recognize that in a fallen world there will be confused sexual and gender identities. Jesus for example recognized that there were those who are born eunuchs (Matthew 19:12).”
lol
Here’s what Matthew actually wrote:
“For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others–and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”
Looks like Jesus was A-OK with gender changes.
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Ark, why God loves them of course.
I don’t think the Scripture is given as a science textbook to detail and explain every biological variation or anomoly that is out there. But, then again, I’m not a fundamentalist Christian, so would not take ahold of Scripture in the sameway. Being made in the image of God is not based in gender. It is deeper than this.
Of course, in general, we are made male and female. People that are born inter-sexed make up an extremely small percent of the population, definitely not the norm. You have to agree with that.
Hey, Ark, if I had a blog, I would never ban you. 🙂 Maybe you are commenting on the wrong web sites.
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I thought your god created humans in his image?
Why do you think he created intersex children?
And how do you know your god loves anybody?
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Hi there.
“I don’t think the Scripture is given as a science textbook to detail and explain every biological variation or [anomaly] that is out there.”
It’s interesting that you say this, considering what the original linked post had to say about the matter. Do you think the author (Mr. Robertson) agrees with your assessment?
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To be created in God’s image is not physical. It has to do more with human freedom, reason, awareness of our mortality, an ability to bear and reflect the light of God’s love to the world, things like that.. We are meant to be stewards of the creation.
I know God’s love through the incarnation of Christ. God fully entered into human life and suffering, so we could know Him, and in a sense share in His life to bring healing and reconciliation to the world.
Ark, I don’t know why there are intersex children. But their lives can be just as full of purpose and meaning and the love of God as anyone of us out here.
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This is not how the verse from Genesis reads and it is certainly not how Robertson used/interpreted it.
So what evidence do you have for your claim?
What evidence do you have for this claim?
What evidence do you have that your god loves anybody?
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Ark … Ark … Ark. After all this time and you still don’t get it? “Evidence” is what the church teaches. To ask for that “other” definition is so passé!
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@Becky
You’re correct that the typical interpretation of the line is that the likeness of God refers to abstract qualities such as our ability to make rational choices and moral decisions. Judaism, especially, emphasizes since we’re all created in the image of God, we are equal in importance and have inherit worth. Neverthless, there are legitimate scholarly articles and sections of the Bible that argue the Bible and the ancient Israelites might have thought God literally has a physical body as well. Although the lines from the Bible and Rabbinic commentary that supposedly show this can also be interpreted metaphorically (as the article acknowledges).
See: The Body of God in Ancient Rabbinic Judaism: Problems of Interpretation
Either way though:
a) “likeness” means we are like God in abstract qualities and have equal value as human beings since we are all made in this same image.
b) “likeness” means a physical likeness and since we’re dealing with a single monotheistic God who apparently created both a man and woman in his physical likeness, such as being must Itself be both genders.
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And yet, the biblical character Jesus of Nazareth refers to Yahweh as his father.
There is no ambiguity or ”wiggle room” in that declaration. None whatsoever.
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As a former Christian and the mother of a transgender man, I would like to tweak your question a little bit. You are conflating the question of how god might regard intersex people and how a Christian church member might regard them. My reading of the Bible, and the New Testament in particular, indicates that the divine is/are compassionate and accepting. Christian churches, however, seem to base their regard of others mostly in some sections of the Old Testament based in Jewish mythology. In my experience, there are a few churches (notably the Unitarian Church) which welcome intersex and transgender members, but they are few and far between.
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I posed the question to Roberson (and Becky) because of the Genesis verse.
As Yahweh is the creator why would he create intersex kids?
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Why would he/she not?
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Serious?
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OK, here’s a thought. If Yahweh is a three-in-one being that created two humans, that says to me that Yahweh has more than one potential gender identity.
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Interesting. Never thought of in this fashion.
However, Yahweh is always referred to as ”he”.
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That is a trope from English writing that goes a long way back. For the longest time, all persons were given masculine pronouns in formal writing.
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Doesn’t the character Jesus always refer to his parent in the sky as ”My Father”?
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That is a reflection of the patriarchal society from which the faiths sprang. The creator was presumed to be masculine and all-powerful because that is how human man were perceived.
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“In the past and to some degree still in the present, the masculine has been used as the “default” gender in English. The use of the plural pronoun they with singular reference is common in practice. The neuter it may be used for a baby but not normally for an older child or adult.” from Wikipedia; Grammatical gender, English.
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God would indeed be multigendered. That is brilliant snowbird!
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God created all people of TrueFaith in His image. This is why I’m Muslim. Only Muslims exist in The One, True God’s image because only they worship the RealTrueGod, Allah. All other faiths are lies pushed by infidels who are inspired to tell said lies by Satan. Oh, and, BTW, The One, True God has a penis and he will use it to urinate on all infidels, atheists, and christians come the end times. Just wait. You’ll see. Allahu Akbar
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This is as far as I got reading your post before I felt inspired (by God?) to comment—
“TEXT: So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)”
God is an androgyne?
Wonders will never cease … and now to finish reading.
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I was wondering the same thing myself. “in his image” does not distinguish which of his ‘image’s he’s referring to. It sort of gives whole new thing to think about. Oh. my. goodness. An androgynous god. I love it.
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Ark, how dare you point out this persons false dichotomy! And force them to have to confront thinking outside of the box. The apparent failure of this person to be able to address the issue is quite remarkable. As in maximum shutdown! Will not respond! Censor, Censor, Censor, Will Robinson!
The last resort of pathetic, wee little minds. Don’t be angry, they deserve a fair amount of pity first 😉
Ok, now be angry lol 🙂
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Edge of Humanity Magazine have published one of the bestial sections of Leviticus re gay sex and don’t even allow one to say what utter bull it is, and what a horrible god it represents. Robertson is of the ‘ignore it and it’ll go away’ school.
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”A fun read for all the family!’
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Not too much more to add to your excellent rebuttal(s) Ark to Robertson and your replies to Christian™ comments here. You’ve handled the antagonists just fine. I’m glad you raised the irrefutable question/fact of inter-sexed births around the world. None of their arguments could ever dissuade or change Nature’s will or human genetics, period. Or to say it in their erroneous religious language and antiquated dogma “God’s work/creation of humans since the beginning of time.“ Well done Sir. 🙂
The rational explanation to inter-sexed births are:
A) God creates endless forms of sexuality BEFORE the embryonic 3rd trimester in Homo sapiens and in the animal kingdom, including heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, etc, etc, et al… and likely many more sexes we will learn/confirm in the future,
B) Either God creates many mistakes (sexual as well) and has been since the beginning of time per the many different Canonical Bibles of His Word,
C) the Holy Canonical Bibles are wrong about strictly a binary sexual designation—that is grossly wrong, obviously,
D) We imperfect, ignorant human beings are wrong in describing what God intends for sexuality on Earth, and/or
E) There is no God whatsoever. 😉
If one genuinely and equitably does their scientific homework, i.e. in embryology, genetics, neurology, endocrinology, etc, etc, along with inter-sexed births, then it is glaringly obvious there is no such thing as ‘ONLY sexual binarianism’ as most Abrahamic religions falsely teach.
And as a nice, juicy little footnote-factoid Ark, inter-sexed births have been happening for a long, long time. Today there are hundreds (thousands?) of confirmed inter-sexed births in Dominican Republic, Papua New Guinea, Turkey, Egypt, and those are just the reported cases. Many families/parents don’t want to report them because of how society treats those babies/kids… e.g. idiot, ignorant Christians™ like Pastor Robertson.
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For anyone interested in more medical facts about inter-sexed births:
https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency
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@ Prof. T
I had a feeling this post would spark your interest, one of the reason I asked Robertson the question.
Perhaps you would have better luck than me if you asked it?
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Perhaps, but last time Robertson began Moderating and deleting my comments after only two replies/rebuttals to his. 😠 As is often the case, he and the Apologists, churches, staff, and Faithers don’t want to know facts… scientific, medical, or otherwise.
I might go try on this one, but his blog is a waste of time for me. Surprise surprise, huh? 🙄
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Or the ISNA website has excellent facts, info, statistics, etc, too:
https://isna.org/faq/frequency/
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Remember the furore over South African athlete Castor Semanya?
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No, sorry. Go on please… 🙂
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya#
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👍🏼 Thank you.
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Excellent information Ark! Semenya “was born with XY chromosomes.“
Therefore, according to ISNA numbers/stats, Caster Semenya—along with thousands and thousands of other humans around the world—is one birth out of every 1,666 births where a female is born with male XY chromosomes or vice versa. Furthermore, the:
Ark, it is clearly time for Faithers/Followers today of the Abrahamic religions to come out of the Dark Ages, isn’t it? 🙄😔
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It is a topic that are completely unaware of and if they have some inkling simply refuse to address it, much like that giant Arse Hat Robertson.
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True, and then if one is a fanatical Faither, they spend an exorbitant amount of their (wasted) time studying only their own holy scriptures—though many laypersons don’t do that either 😉 —or strictly partial sources/subjects reinforcing their own comfort-zone and mentality. Hence, they have no time nor interest in factual, medical sciences like inter-sexed birth rates. They and Robertson play the proverbial game of ostrich head in the sand when it comes to this and many other Naturally occurring life-events… and worse (for them), this occurs BEFORE birth during (I believe?) the 2nd and 3rd trimesters!
Tisk tisk on them. When will they wake from their self-imposed slumber and… to borrow a religious phrase… SEE THE LIGHT? 💡🤭😈
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I think part of this issue is that as finite humans, we can only relate to God in anthropomorphic terms. When I refer to God as He, I’m thinking in terms of pronoun personal. In a deeper sense, God is neither male nor female. There is both feminine and masculine imagery used to describe the attributes of God in the Scripture. It’s not as if He is a physical old guy with a white beard sitting on a literal golden throne up in the sky. 🙂
In my area, there are a number of welcoming and affirming churches for gay and transgendered people outside of just the unitarians. I’m sure it depends on part where people live.
As far as I’m concerned, the Christian church should be caring and welcoming to everyone even if we don’t always agree with each other.
I do have some concern about possible underlying mental health issues, and more reports of reassigment surgery regret that I’ve been reading. But, the bottom line is that this is not my decision to make. We can only be there as a support to people no matter what.
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Non – believers – like me for example – have similar concerns about those who assert their god is real, they have a ”relationship” with him, he answers prayers, and will welcome them into his ”mansion of many rooms” when they die., or, conversely, send them to a place called Hell where they will be tortured and tormented for eternity ….. because he loves them????
Are you possibly able to understand why I for one question your sanity when you espouse such outrageous claims?
Especially when you cannot produce a single piece of evidence to support them?
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Just an observation doug- what u find vile others find gorgeous.
What u call evil is good. All one needs is to review your friends backup commentary that supports your despicable take on scripture.
And to make matters worse for you: scripture has already documented your opinions. But your photos are good- I’ll give u that.
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Tks just the same, but I have no use for such low hanging fruit. In my life of decades involving serious study- I have never for an instant presented what u think is common for children.
While I’m here- try doing a post on a revered man of letters, Dr. Alfred Edersheim. Be fair to yourself and readers.
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You continue to bring up this bloke yet deny the reality of the video.
It isn’t low hanging fruit, it is Christianity.
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Aah contraire. The esteemed scholar is as sound as I will find.
Methinks he would agree with me as to the children vid.
I’m showing u context, and thereby establishing my own credibility and maturity as opposed to antics.
One would hardly teach calculus to a kid who can’t count to 3.
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Again you ignore the reality that is Christianity
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What you seem to have difficulty in understanding, CS, is that non-believers put absolutely NO FAITH, NO CREDENCE, and NO WORTH in the “scriptures.” So all your quoting and references are just words on the screen. They have no meaning.
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HEAR HEAR Nan!!! Well said and spot on!
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Ark, here is what I’m thinking is part of the problem. I have a sense that you don’t have relationships with more moderate and progressive Christian people in real life and time. So, perhaps you are gleaning all these ideas from just people that you’re sharing with on the internet.
It’s sort of analogous to Christian people who based on their experience online actually think that all the non theists out there are actually anti-theists who feel all religion is a poisonous delusion, or who are set on leading amoral lives. Of course, this is far from the truth.
When we don’t know each other personally, there are all kinds of misconceptions that spring forth, and we don’t understand the diversity of thought that is actually out there among any group of people.
I can only tell you that I am far from insane, and that my past profession was in the human service field. As a matter of fact, out side of child welfare, I actually worked to help and support people with mental health problems and issues.
Have you ever read any stuff by someone like CS Lewis? Maybe this would be helpful to you, Ark, to broaden your perception.
To just sum this up, it’s my opinion that very often the Scripture will use anthropomorphic or allegorical language to convey truth that is beyond finite human understanding or words to adequately express.
For instance, the Scripture says something like, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.”
So when Jesus speaks about a “mansion of many rooms” He is helping us to connect with reality concerning the love of God, but I think He is not conveying something which is literally or physically true. Can you see Ark, where I’m coming from.
Some people who come from fundamentalist backgrounds absolutely cannot reason in this way. Perhaps it even has something to do with brain wiring or past experience. I’m not sure.
Hope this helps, Ark.
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Please don’t patronize me Becky.
Comments like yours’ perfectly illustrate why non-believers consider there are mental health issues with believers.
For goodness’ sake, most deconverts will admit to being ”out of whack” so when you try to explain ”when Jesus speaks ….” you merely further entrench the belief that you are a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic.
The irony in your final paragraph regarding how fundamentalists cannot reason in a certain way is, I’m sure, completely lost on you, but it won’t be lost on most of those here who read your comment.
Hope this helps, Becky
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🙂 It’s how you ended up being banned from my blog Becky.
It’s too bad I recall.
You were questioning my own mental well-being in a story I shared when I was a Christian and had what I as a Christian would call a spiritual experience. You wondered if I was on meds and implied you’d never had anything like that so you couldn’t understand. I took issue with you as did other commenters suggesting I must have been “out of my mind” so-to-speak. I simply threw it back in your face that maybe it was you that was mentally defective as a Christian who hadn’t had my experience.
I was trying to make a point. I’ve got to stop doing that. Zoe stops to jot that notation down, jot jot jot.
You kept trying to explain where you were coming from blah blah blah and I asked you to stop. You didn’t. I banned you. And no one lived happily ever after.
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This is in the wrong thread. Fault in my wiring.
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I wasn’t trying to be patronizing, Ark. I was agnostic once. It has not been my personal experience that most non-believers think all the Christians have mental health problems. I think most people feel that we simply disagree, have different perspectives, define and interpret evidence differently, those kind of things.
But, I’ll leave it at that. Sometimes we can only agree to disagree. Not my intention to cause offense to you, Ark.
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You have not caused any offense, Becky.
You are simply trying to make a case for the supernatural with no evidence whatsoever to support it.
Furthermore, you continue to champion the bible when we know it is corrupt from beginning to end and represents little more than historical fiction.
Under normal circumstances I could not care less, but when you consider how vile this doctrine is and what it does it is difficult sometimes to simply shrug it off as inconsequential.
It is a banal tautology, but you are a product of indoctrination and you simply cannot see it, because you are indoctrinated.
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Becky: “Some people who come from fundamentalist backgrounds absolutely cannot reason in this way. Perhaps it even has something to do with brain wiring or past experience. I’m not sure.”
Zoe: Seriously? You are still saying this?
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I am Zoe because I’ve observed it. I don’t think it means everyone from a fundamentalist background though. But, in general I think there is this tendency toward very literal, concrete, black/white type of thinking.
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Well I shall say what I’ve said to you before, on and off for about ten years now I believe.
Perhaps it is your wiring that has a fault in it.
Perhaps it is you that is the literalist and is far more “concrete” than you realize.
Perhaps it is you that is trapped in “black/white type thinking.”
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Zoe, I don’t think of this as just a fault, exactly. I think people are different. But, explain in what way you are feeling that I think in black/white ways or that I am thinking in just a literal way. I honestly don’t recall having a discussion with you about this specific issue. I’m not saying that we never had the discussion, but I can’t remember it. I’m definitely open to self reflection though.
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Becky 6 Feb 2020 at 19:20
[…]
“Have you ever read any stuff by someone like CS Lewis? Maybe this would be helpful to you, Ark, to broaden your perception.”
Zoe: Can you see how this comes across as condescending?
Poor Ark. Such a narrow perception. Try some CS Lewis. He will help you see that there’s more to Christianity than the stories of those other Christians.
Did you seriously think Ark is unaware of Christian diversity?
Becky: To just sum this up, it’s my opinion that very often the Scripture will use anthropomorphic or allegorical language to convey truth that is beyond finite human understanding or words to adequately express.
For instance, the Scripture says something like, “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, and no mind has imagined what God has prepared for those who love him.”
So when Jesus speaks about a “mansion of many rooms” He is helping us to connect with reality concerning the love of God, but I think He is not conveying something which is literally or physically true. Can you see Ark, where I’m coming from.
Zoe: Okay. Your opinion. You’re constantly trying to enlighten us about the big tent of Christianity. We know you “lay hold” of scripture differently than your other brothers and sisters in Christ. Of course we get where you’re coming from. Just because you say “he is not conveying something which is literally or physically true” is not the point. You are a Christian apologist as are those in the fundamentalist/literalist mindset that Ark engages with.
Becky: “Some people who come from fundamentalist backgrounds absolutely cannot reason in this way. Perhaps it even has something to do with brain wiring or past experience. I’m not sure.”
Zoe: My attempt at paraphrasing: So Ark. Listen, some fundamentalists can’t reason like me, in a more nuanced progressive/moderate understanding. It might have something to do with their brain wiring. I just haven’t been able to put my finger on it yet but I’m thinking it’s got to be something like that &/or something to do with their past. Maybe abuse. Some sort of trauma maybe. I’m not sure. But Ark, we’re not all like them.
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@ Zoe
Yes …. I think you pretty much ”nailed it”.
I keep trying to explain to these fundy half-wits that people like you … and pretty much every deconvert has been where Becky , Randy and GodawfulmanBruce are.
It’s one reason why Seth Andrews did that video – Why Christianity Made Me Talk LIke an Idiot.
I realise it is impractical to ban a religion but people like these make it oh so tempting!
🙂
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Zoe, I”m trying my best to communicate across these blogs. I’m not certain of Ark’s background or what experience he has had with Christians. But, based on his writing, it doesn’t seem to me that they have been good experiences. If I am misunderstanding or missing the mark in what I”m saying, he has to let me know.
He is the one who brought up this business about houses with many mansions and how whacky this sounds. I mean he thinks we are “a couple sandwiches short of a picnic” 🙂 I tried to share another view of this.
Zoe, if my memory serves me correctly from years ago, you were sharing various mystical experiences with God, but then came to feel that these were not truly real or legitimate. Obviously, if you thought this was from God, you would not be a non-theist, today.
But, if you were not experiencing mental illness or on any mind-altering medication at the time, I was trying to explore then where did all this come from? My view is actually the opposite of what you’re thinking. I mean I can’t know with certainty, but it seems to me that this was from God. Or, there is some other explanation that we don’t understand.
Zoe, I don’t know why whenever we talk together, things seem to end in disaster. You have to know that I think you’re wonderful. You are kind and compassionate. You care about people. You love the natural world. We should be friends. Simply because we see things differently, and don’t agree about spiritual matters, doesn’t mean that I see no value in your experience or things that you’ve shared.
Somehow everything I say comes across as a huge putdown, and yet that is not what is in my heart. To my mind, I am attempting to engage in the discussion and share a different perspective.
God as my witness, I can’t see what is terribly offensive about my comments.
How do you feel I should approach this differently, then?
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The mansions on the hilltop? It does sound wacky. So does your non-literalist explanation. 🙂
A lot of what we say sometimes sounds wacky. Just because you are a non-literalist doesn’t mean your explanation is anymore authoritative than the literalist. It’s just another way of being a Christian.
I did have a mystical experience. Never questioned it was real. At that time I believed 100% it was God.
Becky, it’s not just us (you and me) and you know that. It’s just that I keep starting the dialogue again.
That doesn’t come across as condescending to you? Let’s imagine for one second that you don’t mean it to. Does that still mean it isn’t?
Look, Ark might think I’m a couple sandwiches short of a picnic and a kool-aid glass half-empty kind of atheist. Careful Ark.
I don’t see you as the enemy. I think you appear to be friendly, sincere and compassionate.
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😁
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I thought you were off cross-country skiing?
Perhaps you missed the parts where you have been repeatedly asked to produce evidence for your claims?
If this is the case then let me restate:
Please provide evidence for any /every claim you make regarding your religion/faith
I sincerely hope this is succinct enough for you to understand?
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I think it’s great that Robertson is answering questions most kids aren’t asking. Hell, most kids know better by now. Thank Google for that.
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Apparently ”so many” kids are asking these questions he felt driven to write a book about it…. the gods help us!
On several ASK posts he has requested that readers go to Amazon and write a review.
I wish I could but the catch here is obvious.
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The lat two words in the question, an oxymoron of biblical proportion: “…biblical evidence.” Good grief. Pick one, please.
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