Calling all deconverted Christians …..

Bruce says:

Hi Ark. I infrequently check out your blog to see if your take on Christianity has changed at all, your recent post entitled “Dumb and Dumber” being a case in point, but I see that I must give you full marks for consistency. I’m curious why you seem drawn to deliberately expound upon the numerous deficiencies within Christianity that you frequently showcase. Is it your superior mental capabilities that you seek to be recognized or is it the agreement that you receive from some of your followers that reinforces your conviction? Surely you can comprehend that there are many very intelligent and gifted individuals who would strongly differ with many of your accusations. Experimental particle physicist Dr Michael G Strauss, synthetic organic chemist Dr. James M. Tour and Dr William Lane Craig are just three that come to mind. My point being, your post on Dumb and Dumber basically ridicules any who would seriously entertain believing in Jesus Christ and the record of His ministry and the early church, as recorded in the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament. Your statement “Are we dealing with a group of men who were as thick as a brick of lard?” pretty well encapsulates the conclusion that you are drawing. I am acutely aware that for every argument I may put forward, you in all probability, could produce some argument that would call into question the validity of my argument. Let’s be realistic, not all Christians are dumb. Matter of fact, there are many who would leave both you and I in the dust should we compare their mental capabilities with our own. To infer that the Apostles were all dumb and any who believe their testimony are dumb is ludicrous. Of course you knew that going in, but I’m presuming that the rational behind your post was not to identify this “obvious” deficiency but rather to showcase your superior mental capabilities and obtain confirming acknowledgement as per some of the resulting comments. God is real. Jesus Christ was and is His Son and He is real. I have experienced the guidance and leading of His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit of God is real. You don’t agree, understood. But please do not insult my intelligence and the worth of my faith and trust in Jesus. At no time have I endeavoured to insult your intelligence. Best regards.

 

Here’s the post in question if you need a reference. Dumb and Dumber.

Feel free to engage with Bruce, either here or on his blog.

 

I shall go and make popcorn ….

 

Ark.

 

 


73 thoughts on “Calling all deconverted Christians …..

  1. I can’t take part in a lengthy discussion of this as we’re leaving in a few hours for a short RV trip. However, this common phrase stood out to me … and it exemplifies quite clearly the only “proof” that Christians have about their faith …

    I have experienced …

    Liked by 9 people

  2. I entered into fruitless discussions with Bruce a few years back. Once bitten twice shy.

    What really frustrated me was when I sent him scholarly articles refuting his arguments he refused to read them, said he was warned by the Holy Spirit no to. If the Holy Spirit is really ‘God’ then a better response would have been to explain in details the errors in the articles, surely this would not be beyond ‘God’.

    On one point I do agree with Bruce, being a Christian does not necessarily mean that a person is dumb. I have known many good and decent folk who were committed Christians and also very bright and intelligent.

    Liked by 6 people

    1. You may have been talking to someone named Bruce but it sure as heck wasn’t me. You might want to do a little research on that one. Take care.

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      1. Sorry my error. There was a person of that name who was a regular feature on Ark’s blog a few years back, with who I had direct mail correspondence at the time. I thought you were the same person, but I admit I didn’t check your profile to see, an error on my part.

        To assume makes an ass out of u and me (well me at least).

        Liked by 4 people

        1. @ Peter.
          That was Bruce – ”Godsmanforever” The bloke with a porn problem whose missus was not quite on the same page with his god beliefs (according to what he revealed himself)
          He was more like Colorstorm with his pants down.

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          1. Yes that is correct Ark, it was “Godsmanforver” who I was referring to. He was a zealous, but very misguided person.

            Liked by 1 person

      2. Kindly, as a Christian deconvert with many years of seminary, mission tours, and church-staff positions… I’ve made a comment down below for both you Bruce and Ark, if interested. Thanks.

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  3. The easy answer is this.

    “Your religion is a pile of shit. I keep flinging it at the wall hoping that one day people like you will recognize it as shit instead of seeing the face of Jesus”

    -Sincerely Ark

    Liked by 6 people

  4. There are lots of intelligent christians, I’ve certainly known a lot. They are the reason for apologetics, which gives intelligent people a mental exercise, and lets them feel like they have rational reasons for continuing to believe things that they began to believe for non-rational reasons. Churches are also good at coaching people to compartmentalize their religious beliefs away from their critical thought processes, and also at diverting people from the actual hard questions over to ones they are more prepared to answer.

    And the reason for expounding on the deficiencies of christianity is obvious, it’s that there are a lot of people out there who need to think more critically about their religion and religion in general. There’s no knowing what will prod a particular person into that kind of thinking, it’s different for everybody. So we need multiple voices talking about different issues and different problems to help as many people escape from religion as possible.

    Liked by 6 people

  5. Islam is the ONLY path to enlightened revelations about God. The Koran says, “This book is not to be doubted.” So, yeah, I’d have to say that guys like Bruce just aren’t…well…smart. 2 billion Muslims can’t be wrong, and the Koran spells it out clearly as to what the truth is. In other words, you’re a dummy to be a Christian and you’re practicing a blasphemous, false, fake religion. Smart people know this. People FAR smarter than Bruce, you (Ark), and I know this and make great arguments for it. Mic drop! Case closed!

    Liked by 6 people

  6. Christianity is designed to allow Christians to rationalize everything that happens in their lives. God allows bad things to happen to them to teach them a deeper lesson. God allows good things to happen to them as a reward for their faithfulness and / or prayers. But they fail to acknowledge that good things and bad things also happen to the non-believer. Even the Bible says it rains on the “Just” and “Non-just” alike. When I stop to think about my friends , Christian and Non, they all seem to be batting about 50%. So what’s the real incentive for people like Bruce ?

    Liked by 4 people

  7. I too have “experienced” what I thought at the time to be a religious encounter with God. I felt I was shown things only a god could show me. I felt things only a supernatural being could make me feel. All this happened during my time as a believer. I was taught from a young age things to believe and so I did. As I was convinced of things, unexplainable events made sense to me. God did them of course. All was well and I was sure of the truth.

    The problem was when things stopped making sense. When doubts crept in, I was forced to dig deeper into what I believed. When my doubts turned into revelation of the history of the church and the religion I was raised in, I had trouble hearing from God. You see, when you already believe, God talks all the time. God shows you this or that. When you doubt and cry out to God for help, he turns his back and plugs his ears. Your close relationship becomes non-existent and you realize you are just talking to yourself. In reality, you always were but were trained to give credit to God for the good things, take credit yourself only for the bad things and give praise constantly to God always.

    Why would a book (the Bible) tell you to cry out because God hears you if he remains silent each and every time? Why is God only active and good when we already believe wholeheartedly? When we doubt, why such silence? To teach us a lesson? To strengthen our faith? Sure didn’t work out that way for me. A compassionate god, by definition, would show compassion. Yet here I am without any faith whatsoever when all I wanted was to believe.

    Liked by 10 people

    1. Yes! You put this perfectly. I used to believe God talked all the time, but as soon as I started to doubt and not believe, I didn’t hear anything from him. You’d think this God would try to reign us back in right?

      Liked by 2 people

      1. You would think that since God “loves” us so much, it’d break his heart to see any of his children walk away. When we fight for our faith and cry out for help, that should get his attention, no? Seems like we didn’t matter that much to him in the first place. Believers who have deconverted have not done so on a whim. Leaving was not a rash decision. It was a long, painful walk away that could easily have been avoided if a god existed that actually cared.

        Liked by 4 people

    2. yep, I got that. The very premise of religion, if you think about it, is paternity. God the Father. Priests and some ministers are referred to as “Father’. Only men become popes, bishops, altar boys or acolytes. women become Nuns or helpmeets or the flower arrangers in the church, or the priest’s housekeeper.
      So when you are in a religion there is always someone else (real or otherwise) in control of your life. Not you. When bad things happen, you either blame yourself (I should have been looking both ways at once, yep) or Satan. When good things happen, you thank God. “He took the wheel and saved my life.” Do that long enough, and any sense of self turns to jello. And not everyone realizes how much control they have given up to a religion.

      Getting away from that lets you take that control back, and it’s both scary and heady at the same time. =) And now you have to believe in You, because you are all you’ve got.

      Liked by 1 person

  8. I maintain it’s a perceived superiority position, kcchief1. They’ll argue until they’re blue in the face against it, but in my mind that’s what it is.

    Liked by 5 people

  9. Surely you can comprehend that there are many very intelligent and gifted individuals who would strongly differ

    There are too. I imagine followers of all the other One True Gods, or followers of all the other gods; or perhaps followers of many of the other various money-making power-grabbing dominance-seeking franchises of those other various gods might also be described as intelligent and gifted … some of them …

    But if a man devotes money/time/effort to following a never seen never felt never known never knowable “God” (and or gods) I ponder just exactly how ‘very intelligent’ such a dupe might actually be?

    Liked by 2 people

  10. I think wee fellow makes a good point—have a Phd or being a nuclear research engineering scientist doesn’t necessarily equate with being rational … or even having all the necessary marbles.

    Liked by 3 people

  11. Of course the conventional religions are pretty ridiculous.
    What seems to escape those who condemn them is the possibility that they are tapping into something deeper without realising it. A meaningless, non-spiritual multiverse is, well, meaningless. The Red Indians — oops, Native Americans (what a useless replacement) —were at a far higher level in that regard, believing in things for which increasing evidence is becoming available using scientific methodology.

    Like

      1. Just that. That there is a spiritual element also to be found in nature.
        The Great Spirit of the Native Americans provides one example; the subject is too vast to be tackled in a comments section and needs a great deal of independent research along unconventional lines.

        Liked by 1 person

          1. No. As a devout (possibly THE devout) atheist—even I at times have felt touched by a sensation of great wonderment that can best be described as (almost) religious ecstasy … the Southern Lights in a frosty star-spangled sky can do it.
            So (without invoking god or God or gods or spooky sky people in long dresses twanking harps) … there exists a wonderment that folks invent inadequate terms for.
            So yes, it can be nature itself.
            Robert Service’s “The Spell of the Yukon”—

            https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46643/the-spell-of-the-yukon

            —makes it so very obviously he’s been there.

            And more clever folks make fortunes from:

            wealth + power + cuckolds = the essence of religion

            Liked by 2 people

          2. Could be; but it is envisioned that some sort of sentience is involved outside of time and space. However, it takes an enormous amount of reading of ‘non-cranky’ material and the application to personal experience to start the perception that there may well be something in it.

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          3. The most you would likely end with is deism.
            And without any sort of evidence to support such a belief even this is a major shot in the dark.

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          4. Not exactly deism per se. Meanings and purposes that go beyond that. Actually, you would be amazed at the amount of cumulative evidence that is available. You have to seek it yourself with an open mind, though, and I’m not in the mood for being some sort of missionary. You may get there; you most probably will not. All the same to me.

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          5. I am fascinated which way you are going with this.
            If you are alluding to a being with sentience then this sounds little different from a ”god”.
            If, however, I am completely off the mark then you are going to have to help me out a bit and not be quite so vague.

            Liked by 1 person

          6. However I describe it is going to seem alien without, as I say, a great deal of willing research. It is not a ‘being’ as such but more a ‘sentient system’. Even that falls short.
            Oh, and reincarnation probably comes into it where, increasingly, hard evidence is being accumulated that makes all the alternative explanations for it seem increasingly puerile.

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  12. Hello Ark. @Bruce you start out talking about intelligence and by inference reason, but then you state clearly state your conviction in the reality of your god is emotionally based. What you gained by emotion you will not be able to prove by reason but it wont matter because your emotion is your primary motive. It seems your saying you know your god is real because your bible says he is and when asked why you believe in the bible your answer seems to be because the bible says it is. Don’t you see a problem with this? This is not really using reason is it? Now if you want to believe in your deity that is your choice, but please stop claiming your deity is real until you can show it is real. Say instead that it is real to you. But when you make a statement that something is real that there is not one piece of evidence for you lose all credibility. That also makes much of what you claim very suspect. So again you can not show your deity, there is simply as much evidence for leprechauns as there is for your god. If you would claim that leprechauns are totally real because you had an emotional response to thinking of leprechauns it is the same as what you are claiming about your deity. It has little to do with your intelligence and says a lot about your emotional state and what you make your decisions based on. Be well. Hugs

    Liked by 6 people

    1. “…as much evidence for leprechauns as for God …”

      Methinks you have an excellent point! But—
      —is there any mention of leprechauns in the Bible, huh? Failing that, the Koran, or any other Abrahamic ingratiating sycophantic pander-fest? Without such I’m afraid the leprechauns dip out completely.( It’s only holy if it’s genuine, and it’s only genuine if it’s in one of Gods unique works.) (No choccie fish for you!)

      Liked by 2 people

  13. I listen this over there “What I find interesting in the real objective evidence. The fact that nobody really believes, but only pretends to believe. If you actually believed god was in the room every day and night, you’d certainly mind your business. But alas, the only force that keeps people in line is what other people think. Man will do in front of his god many Christian nauties, that he would never do in the presence of another human. Nobody believes in god. They only pretend for social reasons.”

    Liked by 7 people

        1. The watchtower blocked my comments too yesterday. They did a post about you, and god not letting your comments through. Mine actually appeared for a while then disappeared. They don’t want anyone spoiling their delusional miracles. Most of them are back now after I questioned them

          Liked by 1 person

          1. They did a post about moi? I am flattered they think I warrant the attention.
            Bruce is now deleting my comments – well, not even allowing them out of moderation.
            He was pissed that I ended my post with I shall go a make popcorn.
            He wrote this in his final comment:
            To say that there is no evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ defies logic. There is evidence, you just don’t want to consider it as valid evidence because you can’t put it under a microscope and analyze it to your satisfaction.
            When asked for this evidence he deleted the comment.
            Don’t these people realise that they look so very very silly when they do this?
            Aren’t they supposed to ‘witness” whenever the opportunity arises?
            Always be ready to give an answer, isn’t this the instruction?

            Somehow I don’t think they have as much faith in their beliefs as they claim

            Liked by 2 people

          2. You surely can’t be so naive as to expect an unprejudiced unedited ‘fair hearing/fair deal’?

            If so, boy oh boy, do I EVER have a salvation for you! Buy now and I’ll throw in your very own personal angel … AND all the virgins you can eat, for ever and ever and ever and always ever … find me a better offer than that and I’ll top it!

            Liked by 2 people

          3. Anyway, it’s against my religion to run around ‘topping’ people. I leave that to wild-eyed fuzzy faced ‘men’ with swords. (And they’re very good at it … but boy, do they ever squawk when someone does it to them!)

            Liked by 2 people

    1. Oops … methinks you goof, a wee bit. Back when I was a pup I was told that Big G was with me 24/7, watching my every thought. Slowed me down a bit until I tested the waters … but I wasn’t dum’ enough to betray myself to the powers that be.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. There are a couple of ways to look at this. One either doesn’t believe in god, or they don’t believe god. We have to disagree with it when it makes something natural a sin, and kills curiously for obedience

        Liked by 1 person

        1. Frankly, I blame God. Even before the Creation He knew exactly what He was letting loose.

          (God was Pandora? That explaineth a whole heap!)

          Liked by 2 people

  14. There are plenty of smart Christians out there, but I think Bruce missed the point, in that his religious beliefs are stupid. Is Bruce able to verify that this ‘Holy Spirit’ led him? When I was a Christian, I too believed that I experienced the Holy Spirit, but it was nothing more than emotions, crowd-think and hype.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. And where did the God-given emotions, crowd-think and hype come from, huh? You answer me that!
      Go on, I dare you!
      They all trace back to the Great Architect, the Creator of the universe who sent his beloved self/son down to the Earth He deliberately created knowing full well what He was doing, so that He could save Himself (and us) from Himsel— … bummer. Lost me train of thought there …

      Liked by 3 people

        1. Dammit … wimp … a quick smite from God before breakfast never hurt no-one,\ and is a lot easier than a cold plunge in a mountain lake. Now get out thee and savage His holy ankles … try it, you’ll like it.
          Just watch out for bearded wild-eyed idiots with guns, or imported Australians cleansing the temples.

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  15. Is Bruce really going to engage any of us here Ark? Any of us deconverts can sufficiently show him the plethora of holes in Christian theology or practice based upon a convoluted, misguided, highly conflicting, amputated 4th-century CE canonical New Testament. The vast majority of them DO NOT WANT to go the full distance of comprehensive historical context! I have always found that 95% of Christian apologists — typically the hardcore radical Faithers — do NOT want to step outside of their 1,600+ year old, extremely biased/narrow box of historicity and their one dimensional context!

    From a purely rational and empirically-based evidence standpoint AND ALL (I mean ALL contextual historical records/evidence!), i.e. the relevant historical context of the time-period like the Dead Sea Scrolls and Second Temple Sectarian Judaism/Messianism just before, during, and after Yeshua the Nasoraean’ presumed life, 9.5 times out of 10 Christian Evangy-Fundy Believers simply refuse to equitably step outside of their tiny, biased, narrow-minded Apostolic/Patristic Hellenistic Church Fathers of post-3rd century CE Syro-Palestine-Nabatea (eastern Fertile Crescent). If they refuse to examine everything, comprehensively and extant SURROUNDING the time-period, then they essentially base their Faith on TWO flimsy cultural sources: Hellenic/Herodian Rome and raw emotions.

    On the latter, survey after survey and poll after poll asking (anonymously) adults of various ages all base their choice of a world religion/faith on one question:

    How will this religion/faith benefit me or hurt me now and in the foreseeable future?

    Here is a 2011 study (one of many) from the Pew Research Center: https://www.pewforum.org/2009/04/27/faith-in-flux/

    Due to deep familial pressures, societal pressures, and perhaps occupational pressures, the majority of Faith-followers today and for several centuries choose based on self-preservation and/or gain. Period. From this private/hidden factor all sorts of justifications and rationale proceed whether it is based in any historical facts or corroborating evidence or not. Period… again.

    Furthermore, but I am not going to go way into this aspect of Christian-foundations, there are only TWO categories Christiological-followers can defend their (blind) faith:

    1) General Revelation — Earth, Nature, our Solar System, and Cosmos.
    2) Special Revelations — either a) highly subjective, individual miracles/paranormal events to people Bruce included, or b) very unreliable canonical Hellenistic Scriptures/New Testament.

    Most all of us Deconverts are more than happy to dismantle these two categories of Christian faith. But as I said, 9.5 times out of 10 Bruce and the like are too lazy to go the distance in what the comprehensive and authentic contextual evidence clearly demonstrates and compellingly proves.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Lots of big words there, Prof. But I personally don’t think that any amount of logic will succeed against fear of the dark coupled with brilliant advertising and unsubtle threatery. Hee hoo holds the high ground commands the field, no?

      Go for the jugular and keep on hammering the contradictions. An exposed blatant contradiction cannot be circumvented — it can only be brushed under the carpet or (embarrassingly) ignored.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Haha, yes… big words, but words nonetheless easily found in any college dictionary or Googled online, as I’m certain you know Sir. 😉 Ah, yes. “Brilliant advertising and unsubtle threatery” [and theatrics!] indeed! Or what I refer to as age old Sales & Marketing scams and hype — not unlike our Republican-Democrat conventions and rallies. LOL 😛

        Yes, the Christian apologists have perfected the art of the disappearing ostrich head with the backsides creating a solar or lunar eclipse, pick one. 😈

        Liked by 1 person

  16. No one doubts there are brilliant christians in several scientific fields. But as long they maintain a belief in talking asses, walking snakes and transporter fish, to name just a few, they are dumb, but only to that extent

    Liked by 3 people

    1. True.
      You cannot ‘argue’ rationally with the irrational, it can’t be done—all you can do is present your case and hope …

      … hope that your seeds do not fall on stoney ground.

      Liked by 2 people

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