Real evidence? Really?

Posted on by Ark

And, if a possibility of intelligent design or authorship exists, then one MUST go beyond the naturalist worldview in order to investigate it.

Furthermore, I have real evidence for the person of Jesus Christ. The surrounding data is undisputed by scholars. Jesus really did exist, He was crucified by Pontius Pilate, His tomb was found empty three days later, and over 500 people claimed they saw Him postmortem over a period of 40 days.

Mel Wild.

 

And how exactly does one go beyond the natural world to investigate the supernatural?

And if the supernatural actually existed and one could investigate it would it then not, by default, become the natural?

 

”His tomb was found empty….”

Was it? How do we know? What evidence is there? And more to the point, just where is this tomb?

”500 people claimed they saw Him postmortem over a period of 40 days.”

That settles it then does it? Oh dear ….

 

Ark

 

 

52 thoughts on “Real evidence? Really?”

  1. one MUST go beyond the naturalist worldview in order to investigate it.

    This is where Mel becomes thoroughly insane. If there is design, then we will see that design here, in this world. I do not need to see a bolide impact on the other side of the planet to experience and measure it’s effect on my side of the planet.

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      1. It’s not. It’s the greatest hand-wave ever invented by apologists. NBut of course, Mel (repeated just the other day) stated that he believes Yhwh meddles in evolutionary processes. So, if there’s intent, then we should be able to measure that intent. He refuses to address this.

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    1. There simply has to be a form of neurological short circuit going on. One cannot maintain such a ridiculous charade without suffering some sort of breakdown.

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  3. Mel is like a child, he excitedly quotes the Bible like he has new revelations about an old myth. I guess to those theists it is a feel good moment as the brains chemicals react when certain religious doctrine or God is the topic of conversation, just as the neuroscientists have discovered.

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  4. If the supernatural cannot be Naturally evidenced, then neither can it be Naturally verified or to say another way… in the natural world, the only one we can make natural verifications in,The supernatural cannot reliably be distinguished or be evidenced as different from delusion or as scrooge put it… “A piece of undigested potatoe”.
    If you only have the option of Trusting without corroboration or burning in an equally u evidenced and naturally unverifiable hell… Call bs on both.

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    1. I have a post in draft of a conversation from last year between you and Mel where he confesses that it all boils down to the heart.
      I should probably post it.

      I recall reading of a YEC professor who stated that even if he was eventually convinced of the evidence of evolution he would still reject it in favour of the bible tale of Creation.

      That surely must be a form of mental illness.

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      1. i guess people have a need to believe in stuff.

        But two things always come to mind with Mel and his platoon: either they’re putting on a dumbshow for us heathens, just to hear us roar, or they are smoking something really really special. and possibly illegal.

        But how in the name of rationality do you go ‘beyond’ the Natural worldview? That smacks suspiciously of Tarot cards, IChing (which is more of a meditation than fortune telling), Ouija boards, and inhaling those possibly illegal substances after 72 days of fasting.

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        1. addendum: do you ever wonder why people who should know better cling with white knuckles to something so ephemeral as religion? What does it give them? For some, joy, maybe. Or the utter belief that death is a step forward, instead of a darkness…

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        2. The best way (to my mind ) to get a handle on this type of thinking is to ask a deconvert, and preferably one who was a fundamentalist, to explain how they came to believe and how they interpreted this ”relationship with Jesus ” stuff.

          Many have stated they experienced almost the exact same thing Mel and his ilk are espousing, so maybe KIA or Jim or anyone from this background could give us the low-down on this relationship issue that Mel constantly drools over?

          Any takers?

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          1. Being completely wrong for the biggest and longest time of your life doesn’t set well. I was heavily indoctrinated as a child and late in the game I started exploring, even here in fact, and just decided, even told some friends I just throw my hat in the ring with Jesus, having been convinced by people I trust that even if it wasn’t true, it was the best thing going. It isn’t! When you finally grow up enough, have the integrity to face the fact that you may be wrong, the entire world opens up, your mind is free, and then you have to consider all the family, friends, people you converted, disappointment of your parents, and so on. Not that I am special or smarter than anyone, but fortunately I had the integrity to not live a lie, no matter how comforting the lie is. It’s a damaging lie when you see it from unbelief, and I had to walk. A lot like Kia, going through the grieving process, wondering if I was crazy. How could everyone be wrong? Easy. They are, and they don’t have the strength to carry on without crutches. Mel knows he’s got nothing. He’s turned his god into an abstraction just so he can hang on to his jesus that saved his marriage, when in reality it was his wife that did it. She gave him another chance when he didn’t deserve it. The he had the sense to straighten his own ass out. He had the power, his positive outcome just happened to coincide with prayer. Prayers that millions have offered and still got divorced. I had the power too, and called my own shots in every way of my life—except religion. That gave me pause enough to find some actual, unexcused answers, I when I called bs on the whole charade I became human again and can progress to practicing what is just words in the groupthink/church setting.

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          3. It hard to be concise when there are so many angles and excuses at play when it comes to faith. Faith is what makes the man, and denying faith amongst the faithful is an unpardonable sin. So, for the longest time you just say yes in case you missed something.

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  5. WTF? Imagine the Romans, a suspicious sort, who believed grave robbing to be a heinous crime and would come down like a ton of bricks on anyone trying to pull the wool over their eyes, would react if someone they had crucified was walking around the jurisdiction of Jerusalem for forty days after he had been executed! If you want real evidence, explain why the Romans didn’t seem to notice this little kerfuffle surrounding a condemned criminal supposedly raised from the dead. If it were true, the gossips would have spread the story all over Jerusalem in less than a day and the Romans would have been alerted tot hat fact in even less time. Jesus would have been scooped up and recrucified or chopped to make mincemeat to make sure he stayed dead.

    People like Mel claim that the resurrection is the greatest event of the time and the Romans didn’t notice. Sheesh, talk about willful ignorance.

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    1. This has been one of my major bones of contention.
      Why did the Romans sit back and do absolutely nothing about an executed criminal who was now walking around their jurisdiction for 40 days larger than life.

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    1. If memory serves this was debunked a while back?
      Furthermore, I consider the character is a work of fiction, constructed from the ground up.

      If you look at the article directly below on the link it mentions a 1st century house that could have been where Jesus lived.
      When you read these two things together you should get a feel of where they are trying to lead you.

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      1. This update is just a damming piece of new info if is true his bones are there along with his son and wife. But we’ll probably never know one way or the other. Why else would they suppress it fifteen years unless it was damming to their cause? But I get you. I’m not arguing for this, it just is. They would instantly debunk real evidence—doesn’t fit the faith game.

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          1. He was acquitted. However, since nothing else about the story is true I doubt this is either. They already have an excuse lined up if it is real “for many the resurrection was spiritual in nature”

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          2. One must always bear in mind just how much is invested in the Jesus Story. And I mean this as much from a financial perspective as I do so-called spiritual.
            It is, therefore, in Israel’s best interest to keep the Happy Clappers merrily dancing on the puppeteer’s strings thus ensuring a constant flow of evangelical dollars, mostly from the US of Eh?
            The greatest virtue of them all is Hope!
            And you never know …. right?

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          3. Like the video you shared yesterday, the different baptism sites, tombs, etc feed the cash cow with dumb Americans paying to have their pictures taken in a fraudulent setting to bolster their faith. I have a friend that came back from Jerusalem and he “knows” the places he visited were real because he felt the spirit there. Lol. He’s been played by pros.

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  7. John Dominic crossan says that crucifixion ended in being left on the cross untill the dogs and birds ate away the flesh. The remains tossed into a common pit. The whole point of crucifixion was deny an honorable or decent burial.
    If Jesus was crucified, there was no tomb. If he had friends powerful enough to secure release of the body for honorable burial, he would have had friends powerful enough to secure release from the crucifixion torture and death itself.
    Either there was no tomb or their was no crucifixion death. Pick your poison.

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    1. Josephus tells of his encounter with three friends he found crucified and he petitioned to have them taken down from their crosses.
      He was granted leave to remove them but two died and one recovered.
      I can’t remember which Josephus text this is from, but it is interesting in its similarities to the Jesus tale.

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      1. Point being, it’s not necessarily a given that Jesus had a tomb at all. And saying “the tomb is empty” just demonstrates an empty tomb, not that Jesus was put there or that he supernaturally resurrected.

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  8. The claim of 500 witnesses always bothered me. This was one anonymous author’s account of the event in question. It was one man claiming there were 500 witnesses of one event, NOT 500 individual claims. It was 1 speaking about 500, not 500 speaking about 1 event. He could have said there were a million witnesses, but it would still just be 1 claim, not a million.

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      1. Crucifixions were the precursor (and probably the inspiration) for medieval hangings, in which the poor soul was strung up, carefully, so as not to hasten his death, and left there until he did die. We are such a ghastly species.

        The best part was that it became public theater. Children were brought to watch, groups would comment on the progress of the soon to be deceased…and in fact public hangings were considered public theater until not that long ago, but the process was much swifter.

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  9. I just stumbled across your blog. Are you trying to say that Jesus didn’t exist? I am not religious by any stretch of the imagination but, I am trying to understand your point of view.

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      1. The man actually did exist though most of what is commonly ‘known’ about him is so twisted out of shape. I’ve had several conversations with some Hindus that claimed he didn’t exist, either. Considering how he was turned into a virtual ‘god’, in that respect, no…THAT Jesus did not exist. I am of Celtic and Native American blend so, ‘religion’, to me, is quite the sick joke…meant only for domination. You can thank Constantine for that nonsense.

        Early AD Celtic writings note the arrival of Joseph of Arimathea (merely a title…Jesus’ brother John) and Jesus’ son arriving in Britain in 42AD, a little over 40 years before the Romans took complete control. John and Jesus’ son brought forth the ‘real’ messages from Jesus The Christ (which was just a title given by the sect he existed in, just like John’s…it’s not some golden ‘god’ halo…Dead Sea Scrolls explain the titles) and it was quite similar to what the Celts and Druids practiced. By the time 326 rolled around, the Council of Nicea declared Celtic/Druid beliefs as heretical. Pelagius protested in 380 and is still considered a heretic.

        The thing about Celtic society was personal responsibility, something truly lacking in today’s society. They acknowledged the right of self determination and the responsibility that went with that right. ‘Man’ is not here to conquer but, to learn. ‘Western’ religions have nearly destroyed ‘the natural ways’. The true teachings of Jesus were of tolerance and reliance on the self, not the ‘state’ (some governing body). Rome forcibly took land and money whereas the Celts/Druids shared everything for the benefit of the community. Guess who won.

        Jesus was born in March of 6 BC to parents who were well connected within the two main factions that existed at the time…Priests who wanted control & power (and to stop the tribes from squabbling) and The Brotherhood of Sion (precursor to the Knights of Templar). Then, of course, there was the added complication of the Roman occupation. No, he wasn’t a ‘virgin birth’ and Joseph & Mary were ‘titles’, not names. They belonged to the Tribe of Judah and were known as ‘Nozrim’ or Nazarenes…not Nazareth, a town that didn’t even show up on maps until after 70AD when the Romans sacked Jerusalem. ‘Nozrim’ is a shortening of a hebrew word meaning “Keepers of the Covenant”, the designation of the people who lived at Qumran where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found. The official recording of his mother’s name has been lost but, his father’s real name was Zebedee. Magdalene was his wife, Mary being her ‘title’ and no, she was no prostitute. Women held equal status to men.

        His parents’ association with The Brotherhood of Sion led to Jesus’ knowledge of the ‘treasure’ of Solomon…The Ark of the Covenant, which has crap to do with the Ten Commandments. The Ark contains “The Tables of Testimony” and generates an electrical charge that can electrocute if not opened properly. The Ark was brought out of Egypt by Moses (pharaoh Akhenaten; the Egyptian word for ‘true’, as in ‘true heir’, is Meses…pronounced Moses). Solomon placed the Ark under the Temple in Jerusalem. Why hasn’t it been found? It is in an energy vault which has a time lock, the knowledge of construction contained in The Tables of Testimony. It moves the Ark two seconds forward in time making it invisible. The name ‘Templar’ stems from the Latin ‘tempus’. They had the ability to generate ‘time slips’. The Brotherhood of Sion knew about the vault and wanted to freely disseminate the information among the people. Information was copied and distributed, secretly…until the Priests found out.

        Jesus’ crucifixion is a misinterpretation. He was, indeed, ‘strung up’ but, he didn’t die, hence the reports of his sightings. His followers took him down after he was ‘up’ for a time. He was allowed to be taken down (remember the well connected family). It was pretty much ‘symbolic’. So, an empty tomb would have been an empty tomb and everything else was written by the church to make him ‘The Son of God’. That being said, he left the area and comes the reports of his visitations elsewhere.

        His brother John took over as the protector of his wife, Magdalene. He traveled to Marseilles, France and established a place where he could bring Magdalene and her son Jesus. By the time Magdalene arrived in Southern France, she was pregnant, again, with a daughter. They eventually wound up in Carcassonne. John traveled, spreading the teachings of The Tables of Testimony (winding up in Britain with Jesus’ son) and, after several years of teaching, Jesus, himself, also came to Carcassonne and fathered a second daughter.

        When the Romans sacked Jerusalem, the tribes were scattered. The time vault wasn’t discovered. Many traveled to France and created the community called The Cathars. If you know your history, you know what happened to them.

        Jesus’ three children married and began the dynasty of the Morovingian kings. It was a bit after this that The Church of Rome turned Jesus into a ‘divine being’ and Magdalene into a prostitute.

        During the Crusades, which was really about The Church of Rome attempting to removed the Ark, the Templars gained access to the Temple with the help of a French Duke and the Ark was moved to France. After the destruction of the Templars, the Ark was moved to Scotland.

        You have no idea just how close The Raiders of the Lost Ark and Dan Brown are to the truth.

        And, if you are a believer in reincarnation, here’s the kicker to the “Divine Return of Jesus”…he has already returned…and left, again. The soul that was Jesus just recently died…as Yasser Arafat, a champion for his Palestinian people.

        Take all of the above as a grain of salt or…consider it.

        Cheers!

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          2. No bother at all, I assure you. I often get unusual people who visit the Ark’s spot.
            I shall just add you to the list.

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          1. @John

            Don’t know about you, Mister Z , but our friend’s revelation took my breath away.
            And there was I thinking he … sorry He reincarnated as Tom Hanks.

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  10. You need to go to church and have a beautiful wave of light come through the stained glass window…. it’s supernatural! I hear similar stories that people go to church services and are in awe over the music or the organ and they make the claim that they had an “experience”. I’ve been inspired by many things… it’s not supernatural!
    Have a great day! 🙂

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