Oh for the gods’ sake …. Here’s Moses … again.

Although this is a genuine comment, and I find it quite funny, there is a serious side.

As a warning so you understand a little context of where this chap is coming from. He believes there is no evidence to suggest there was not a global flood and all this entails, thus we should trust the bible. This might seem an odd way of putting it, but this is what he is like. There is a certain type of person that uses this form of ambiguity, maybe they think it makes them come across as better informed, more learned or something. Who knows?

You can draw your own conclusions, I’m sure.

Here we were discussing Moses and the Exodus and in particular Kadesh Barnea.

I have included all the pertinent parts of the comment so you can ponder on why, for some reason,  he thinks I am ill?

I especially enjoyed the term ”secularist delusions”, and I guess that includes you lot too! What a thrill, right? You are all as mad as I am. Bunch of Heathen Nutters! Send an S.A.E. There might be a Badge.

*The emphasis are mine.

 

*John Kilpatrick

I have no doubts about Kadesh, Ark:
the Bible says nothing about the Israelites staying there for forty years and archaeology has confirmed that they didn’t. Yes I know that lots of people who should have known better have said that they must have but you simply cannot insist that if they were wrong then the Bible must be. It does not follow.
I’m looking through the Book you linked to:
p. 7 Suitability of Kadesh for a settlement
p.33 Fortress in Kingdom Period
p. 60 Exodus Period but no Bible reference
p. 67 Dispute over two possible sites for Kadesh
p. 68 Map.
p. 77 Says archaeological record does not accord with what we expect from Exodus but does not give any reference to a Bible verse.
It’s time for me now to apologise to you for my part in the worsening of your condition. On your own blog one of your friends told you to stop doing this — he called it ‘staring into the abyss’ and cited Nietzche ( Ark says: I think this sounds like Argus, who is now fired, the miserable kiwi git!  🙂 ) — but you have continued to the point of making yourself ill. I confess too that I’ve ignored the signs because I’ve found you to be a very useful source of what I’m going to call secularist delusions. I’ve been deluding myself, however, that your wild exaggerations — e.g. ‘Not a shred of evidence’ — were just the accepted way of talking among your circle of online friends, but it seems you can do no else, even when your argument would be greatly strengthened by taking a more nuanced view. I have been holding it as a possibility that your continual humiliation here was due to the moth-drawn-to-the-flame-effect but ‘megalomania’ seems more like it.
Sorry I have not helped. This is goodbye. Kadesh has been the last straw for me.
John (Kilpatrick)
This is a strange comment for several reasons.
He is adamant that the bible: says nothing about the Israelites staying there (Kadesh) for forty years”
and then goes on to state ”and archaeology has confirmed that they didn’t.’‘ 
So what does the bible actually say?
Quite a lot in fact.
And all I had to do was haul out my trusty old KJV, which is littered with little dots from marks made by a red pen.
Here are a few.
Deuteronomy 2-14
And the time from our leaving Kadesh-barnea until we crossed the brook Zered was thirty-eight years, until the entire generation, that is, the men of war, had perished from the camp, as the Lord had sworn to them.
Deuteronomy 9-23
Numbers 20; 1-29
Joshua 14:6-7
And the other verses mention Kadesh too. Look them up.
Kilpatrick mentions dispute over 2 possible sites for Kadesh. This is fact, but the two-site theory does not hold much water with the majority of archaeologists, as one of the suggested sites is Petra. You can read all about it on the web.
Now what is really odd – and it’s worth repeating – he states that, ”archaeology has confirmed that they ( the Israelites) didn’t.” ( stay at Kadesh)
Which is exactly what has been said all along! The Israelites emerged from within the greater Canaanite society. There never was an Exodus as described in the bible. Period
Is it me and my ”secular delusion”, or did I miss something?
If you want to read one of the best demonstrations of just how ridiculous the Biblical Tale is then you will be hard pushed to find a better piece of writing, with pictures too, on the subject than this, from John Zande.
There … my secularist delusional bias is showing big time!
Ark

76 thoughts on “Oh for the gods’ sake …. Here’s Moses … again.

  1. He comes across as quite confused. And Petra doesn’t help as it has the same problems Kardesh has… the absence of absolutely everything, plus archaeologists know exactly who built it, and the first sign of life there isn’t until some 5 centuries after the supposed exodus.

    Liked by 4 people

        1. Yes, I mentioned that Kitchen is an expert on certain aspects of Egyptology and has the respect of his peers. But as we know he holds an evangelical position regarding the Exodus and is held in scant regard by historians and archaeologists over his biblical views.
          And this gets right up their noses and they throw a wobbly!
          ”Oh, so because he is a Christian you dismiss him?”
          Not exactly, no. But the presuppositional view he ( and others of his ilk) brings to the argument is why I, and historians and archaeologists, dismiss him.
          Accordingly, everything I research is worth squat, because it comes from the internet!
          Thus, referencing or quoting Finkelstein or Dever from a video that features them doesn’t count either!

          Neither quoting Wolpe, Herzog, or anyone in this field.

          You simply cannot reach these people. But it is fun to post the evidence – when it gets through- as it also makes me fact check and go back to basics in this regard and one always picks up more info on the way.
          I was unaware that Petra had been suggested as another site.
          Now I know.

          Liked by 2 people

          1. Ask them to explain why Kitchen, for example, has never even tried to have a paper on the Exodus published? Ask them why his ideas are only put in non-peer reviewed books. If his ideas held any worth in the ‘actual’ world, then surely it’d a school of thought amongst professionals.

            Liked by 3 people

          2. It is pointless – and you know yourself the likely type of response.
            I have to go through moderation for every comment and certain pertinent ones he does not let through.
            Robertson is of a similar mold to Mel/JB.
            And Kilpatrick is becoming more of a smarmy twit with each comment.
            Kilpatrick posted a link to an entire barrage of Kitchen’s work in an attempt to show Kitchen ”was the man, dontcha know?” – most of it was online and accessible, but nothing, not a peep concerning Exodus and Conquest.

            Liked by 4 people

  2. Ark I think William Dever is the most interesting person to focus upon. It is Dever’s journey that is most telling. He transitioned from a position close to that of Kitchen to one closer to that of Finklestein. Dever’s credentials are impeccable and he has spent a lifetime looking at the evidence.

    Dever is not someone who can be discredited for having an agenda in either direction.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Thank’s Peter.
      I know, William Dever’s story, including his background.
      And, of course, Dever’s father was a minister.
      But this jerk has, on occasion, cherry-picked Dever and recently he did to ensure Kitchen was given a ”Gold Star” of approval.
      Kilpatrick is simply a disingenuous, Creationist prat.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. You have heard the saying” I would rather believe God is real and when I die find out he isn’t than to live as if He isn’t and find out he is.”

        Like

        1. Yes, but belief in a creator type deity is not the same as belief in a specific personal god which is what I think you are alluding to, am I correct?

          Like

          1. Bc, why does it always come to a threat of eternal punishment for not believing on no or bad evidence? “You’ll be sorry” sounds like a mob boss threat to me. Many who still consider themselves believers is God or gods, even a lot of Christians, have ditched the whole “hell” thing as cruel and monstrous. If there is a God or gods, and I still believe there might be, why would he/she/it not receive all? How can an ‘unchanging’ being be changed (ie. Offended and angered) by our actions or unbelief?
            If you have a God who needs to threaten or needs the threat of hell, eternatal torture or punichment in an equally undemonstratable ‘place’ called hell… he’s not worth the title or worth our worship.

            Liked by 5 people

        2. You have heard the saying” I would rather believe God is real and when I die find out he isn’t than to live as if He isn’t and find out he is.”

          So what if when you die you see Ganesha

          Or you see
          Minos, Rhadamanthus, and Aeacus are the three judges of the dead in greek underworld
          Or the god
          Is one that only sends atheist to heaven and all other religious folks to the lake of fire

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          1. You are beginning to come across as a little obtuse and I’m getting somewhat confused. Can you simply answer the question in a straightforward manner?
            Do you really believe that humans and dinosaurs existed together at the same time.

            Liked by 2 people

          1. The difference being, if you were just nuts people might have an allergic reaction and go into anaphylectic shock being exposed to you for too long?
            Whereas if you are merely a (effing) nutter we might just dribble a bit?

            Liked by 2 people

  3. He is adamant that the bible: ”says nothing about the Israelites staying there (Kadesh) for forty years”

    and then goes on to state ”and archaeology has confirmed that they didn’t.’‘

    Is it possible Ark, that Kilpatrick has and reads a bible that the earliest Catholic Church and earliest Church Fathers would deem heretical? In other words, one that is not among the hundreds of various popular bibles and bible translations in circulation? And by the way, my question completely ignores what Rabbinic Judaism deems the “right” Mishnah and Talmud… which most all radical, bizarre Christians (Kilpatrick) totally dismiss. LOL 😄

    Liked by 3 people

    1. I really don’t know what he is reading. I have my trusty KJV, ( a prize I won while at Sunday School when I was 8 years old) and a quick internet search confirms the scripture. It says they were there …. period.

      Liked by 3 people

      1. Oh, you are absolutely right it’s in there PLAIN AS DAY! What I wanted to imply is that not only does he want to be “unique” and “set apart” from the norm with his wild, bizarre UNbiblical claim(s) — truly symptoms of a psychological disorder — but he is also fueling the literal, empirical truth that NO ONE on the planet since the beginning of time and history has ever had an identical described or written nature of this one(?) “God”!!! Not even within HIS own denomination/sect! No religion on Earth is unanimous or unified perfectly on all the theological tenets! LOL 🙄😄

        And your guy here is fanning those enormous flames/fuel BIG TIME!!! Hahaha!

        Liked by 3 people

        1. I know. But Kilpatrick was saying there was nothing in the bible about Kadesh so I found this which supports the religious view and told him to scroll down till he found mention of Kadesh and how long the Israelites supposedly stayed there.

          He won’t consider anything by Dever or Finkelstein.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Ah, OK. But still, what a strange book. The editor from a US bible school, and the person writing that particular chapter seeems to really, really, really want to say it’s all true, but reality just keeps biting her on the ass. “The intent was historical”? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

            Liked by 3 people

          2. As you saw I also supplied the verses from the KJV where Kadesh in mentioned.
            I just do not understand what angle he is trying to play. Have you commented over there, yet?

            Liked by 2 people

          3. this was the comment:

            Your comment is awaiting moderation.

            @John Kilpatrick

            Hi John, just reading through the comments and I’m curious. You seem to dismiss the work and conclusions of the overwhelming majority of archaeologists (mostly Israeli), bible scholars, and even Jewish rabbis, which of course you can, but do you do so because you think there’s some broad conspiracy in play here? If so, what, in your opinion, would rabbis, for instance, have to gain by admitting the Jewish origin tale is a myth?

            I’m also curious about Kitchen. He’s written many books presenting his ideas, books that sell well among evangelicals, but he has never published an actual peer-reviewed paper on the Exodus in JSTOR. Does this seem odd to you?

            Liked by 3 people

  4. “Ark says: I think this sounds like Argus, who is now fired, the miserable kiwi git!”

    Eek! I’ve been fired?
    Dammit … I knew my dementia was kicking in but I seem to have overlooked this.
    I do love the “Kiwi git” bit — recognition in my own lifetime (sniff) …

    Like

  5. As for defacing the holy WOG … instead of red pen dots and highlighters and other gubbinses, these days I use the wee sticker-flags you can get from a good stationery shop or Chinese emporium.

    Some of my books and many of my magazines now look like colourful fluffy hedgehogs (and I wish I’d colour-coded right from the start).

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Was it you who Kilpatrick is referencing?
      Sounds like you or Steve.
      I could not be bothered to trawl all my posts to find the comment, but I am impressed he has obviously read some of them!

      Like

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