Oh for gods sake! ”See these holes in my hands, Tom?”

So, I guess I’m saying it’s hard for me to answer the question for someone else. I can only describe how I see it. It really is a faith issue in the end, even if one only believes in empirical evidence. There’s still an “unknown” in the equation because we can’t know all things.

Pastor Mel Wild

No it is not, Pastor. Empirical evidence does not require faith as this flatly contradicts the meaning of what empirical evidence is. And if you are confused then you need to consult a dictionary.

Your christian beliefs require faith simply because they are not based on any sort of  empirical evidence.

Even the biblical character, Jesus of Nazareth knew the difference:

 “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who believe without seeing.”

Probably time you re-looked at the reason you are a Christian with a bit more honesty, don’t you think so?

Ark.

Advertisements

82 thoughts on “Oh for gods sake! ”See these holes in my hands, Tom?”

  1. The religion has played some very finely tuned cards manipulating human nature. Demanding faith before knowledge, and then warning against future unbelief and condemning it as prideful. It also condemns the learned “ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth”. And of course, it’s their truth that you have to learn. Its a bass ackwards manipulative ploy that works very well obviously.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Indeed it does. But the final comment which alluded some dark days when all was almost lost tells its own story and is very much in keeping with the time-tested reasons for converting: ”Oh Jesus I have been a naughty boy and I am a bit desperate… please save me from this guilt and I will believe for ever ‘n ever … honest I will.”

      From Francis Collins to Pastor Mel, They are all more or less the same: fear/guilt driven.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I think a couple of ways on this. I do think Mel had honest intentions in the beginning, but when your blog support is JB, IB, and CS, and you don’t see a problem with that, that’s a problem. His waning and wandering dogma has only attracted the worst loyal following in the history of blogging. I think this crept up him a bit, and now the camel is in the tent while Mel stands out in the storm alone. Where are they when he’s in a corner like he is now? I did notice he has ignored JB’s comment so far, and that’s a good sign.

        Like

        1. Like many professionals/apologists in this field the realization that not only can his claims of truth and knowledge not be supported as he was originally led to believe there is also the conflict of dogmas between different Christians sects – and they all come together on the internet! I love this aspect.
          Look at the comments Anthony Paul left on his Tolerance post.
          There are times when people like Mel must be torn between the Devil and the deep blue sea when engaging in dialogue with someone such as Wally, for example, who is a dinosaur-hugger who became born again (sic) under similar circumstances if I am reading between the lines correctly.
          Regardless, it was all about desperation guilt and thank-you-Jesus.

          Nan mentioned that, deep down Mel is probably a nice bloke.
          Maybe he is?
          We’ll see.

          Liked by 3 people

          1. I have a blogging buddy in India, and he was shocked that there are so many many Christian faiths all differing. He thought Christian was one big church. The concept was difficult for an outsider to grasp. They all are floundering and the collapse is coming. They can’t see this and have excuses for it, but everyone has gone their own way, and the Inverse Square Law is in full view.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. Maybe it’s because I’m female … but I do try to see the “best” in people. No offense to the male population, but I think oftentimes their aggressive nature causes them to view words (and oftentimes actions) from a different perspective.

            Notice … I’m not pointing the finger at ANYONE! Just making a general observation and defending why I think he may be … “a nice bloke.” 🙂 (See his latest comments to Ben and Jim … considerably toned-down.)

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Maybe it’s because I’m female…

              You do make an interesting observation Nan, not just in human behavior, but animal behavior as well. In the animal kingdom it is well-known that males FIGHT each other for a harem; the more females the less aggressive males are to each other — plenty to go around(?). In human behavior — and I’ve witnessed this firsthand innumerable times around the world and in the U.S. — when in nocturnal social places the more women around, the more peaceful men tend to be; sexes fairly balanced, etc. However, when the sexes are way out of balance in nocturnal social places, e.g. too many males and not enough females, the males (particularly the hyped-testosterone males) are more aggressive and more easily aggitated/edgy. LOL 😄

              This is one reason (out of many) that balanced, moderate estrogene/testosterone humans (as opposed to the extremed) are supportive and active for MUCH MORE WOMEN being leaders in civilization, more balance rather than heavily patriarchal and hyper-Alpha. HAH!!! Can’t say I disagree! 😉

              Liked by 1 person

                  1. Yes, this was the salient part.
                    At one stage my wife banned me from reciting lines from this movie. It got to the point where some of us could recite almost the entire film. It was insane.
                    But a classic none the less.

                    Liked by 1 person

                1. Not just bars Nan. Of course this type of behavior is more prevalent among singles or available-for-mating types — and some (many?) of those can be married too! HAH! Marriage has NEVER meant “off limits” dontcha know. 😈😆

                  Liked by 1 person

                  1. *Face palm.* I bloody well knew you were going to say something like this.
                    Oi … my granny reads this blog, so watch it.
                    I can ban people too y’know!
                    And Liverpool play City tonight in the second league of the quarter final and I’m already on edge so don’t wind me up!!!!!. …… ! (for good measure)

                    Liked by 1 person

                    1. Yes, Liverpool v City! I have gotten lucky here. The game is on FoxSports 1, which I get, so I’ll be able to watch the game I wanted to watch all along — not Roma v Barcelona. And everyone and their grandmother knows who is winning that match and aggregate. 🙄

                      If Man U can do it at the Etihad and their offensive lethality isn’t anywhere NEAR Liverpool’s offensive lethality, then (right now) I seriously feel Klopp’s boys have a good chance… IF they play solid defense AND Karius has a sublime game in goal, they can pull it off! 🤩

                      Liked by 1 person

                    2. Well huge congrats Ark to your Reds! They did it. At halftime I thought referee Antonio Mateu Lahoz was once again going to make himself the “center of attention” by making some questionable calls and no-calls then throwing out Pep. In my Football Manager 2017-2018 simulation by SI and Sega (which I LOVE playing!) Lahoz is a tough referee to play under. I don’t like him at all because of his ego.

                      But nevertheless, Liverpool’s defensive/tactical strategy held City off. They deserved the win and the aggregate score-line. Hats go off to Klopp! I love that guy! I think he has become one of the elite managers in the world, certainly in the discussion. I hope he and his boys can make it thru the Semis. 😉

                      And are you fuckin’ KIDDING ME about Roma!!!!??? HOLY SHIT! I am crushed Barca isn’t at least in the semis. Wow! 😵

                      Liked by 1 person

                    3. Sorry didn’t reply earlier – had dog issues last night.
                      That first half had me squeezing my cheeks. But the second half was a much better show.
                      Phew!
                      Next….
                      Roma’s performance was outstanding!
                      Barcelona hardly turned up. I reckon it was because of that awful strip they were wearing. Too much like Man City. 😉

                      Liked by 1 person

                    4. Hahahaha! It was a kit that was vomit-inducing. Obviously Barca thought they had the win before the game was played — a 4-goal lead SHOULD’VE been more than enough to advance. But look what arrogance gets you, huh? LOL

                      Like

      2. How can you spring such a wannabe plea bargain on the guy who knew millions of years before you ever did that you were gonna surprise Him with it?

        (Just bit me tongue. Bugger …)

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Mel is a habitual liar.

    In this case, Mel argues that any level of uncertainty means ‘faith’ in order to build a false equivalency between conclusions derived from empirical evidence and claims he prefers that are identical to making shit up and then extended into the world under the guise of a similar ‘conclusion’. Lies at every step. Yet, ironically, he has zero uncertainty about Jesus as a god but claims this a true faith position, too. Oh, but I thought it was a level of uncertainty that created faith.

    What a piece of work Liar Mel is. And none of this incoherence he uses to rationalize his faith-based impositions on reality matters to him in the slightest. He’s on a holy mission, donchaknow, God’s mouth, Mel’s humble ear.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Admitting this will, I suspect, plunge him back from whence he came – that place he was forced to dig himself out of.
      Or rather, hand the job over to Jesus and screw everything else.

      Now that he has emerged relatively unscathed and the guilt fear has subsided, he, like so many in a similar situation, is forced to maintain the charade.

      In a way it is quite pathetic and one could feel for him, and those faced with similar life decisions, but I can never condone the relentless onslaught of such people on others.
      KIA has often expressed sincere regret for what he put others through because of the bullshit he swore was real.
      I salute him for his honesty and can sympathise with his feelings of guilt he has to deal with.
      And it doesn’t help when fuckwits like Branyan go all crazy on his head.
      Now that bloke is fucking certifiable, as is his daughter.

      As JZ has saidbefore, if Mel and others of his ilk, maintained it was all about faith in Jesus, stayed away from asserting truth and knowledge claims and kept it to themselves, no probs.
      Otherwise their beliefs need to be challenged at every step.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Well, I am uncertain of this lode bearing wall is strong enough to support this structure, so since I’m uncertain, I am going to use faith to make sure that the building doesn’t collapse. It reminds me of a certain Monty Python skit. 🙂

      Liked by 4 people

    3. You should see my latest post, a vid link that purports to be ‘candid camera’ from inside a Muslim school. Those guys are on a holy mission from God too, ya know.

      For my penn’orth, they are worser than Christians … much much more worser …

      Liked by 1 person

            1. If you like it enough, you might share it around, you know “spread the Good Word”.

              I think it should be compulsory view in all UK cop shops, schools, public offices, Parliament … and especially anywhere the ‘Bleeding Hearts’ gather.

              Like

  3. Mel is not going to ever be honest with his blog readers about why he believes what can’t be proven vs why he so easily dismisses what can be.
    He comes close in this quote, but he refuses to take the next step and admit it’s a fraud completely.

    Liked by 3 people

        1. It doesn’t diminish your 100% commitment and willingness to put aside everything to pursue your faith.
          Once the realization that it was all nonsense began to dawn on you, to look that squarely in the eye and kick it into touch must have been a tough call.

          Liked by 1 person

                    1. I reckon honesty only begins when one acknowledges the doubt has become too great to ignore. Until then , there will always be a theological bolt hole to run to if one really needs.

                      Liked by 1 person

              1. I was committed 120%! Was raised by a U.S. Marine father that made it simple: “take whatever time you need to decide (but not wasted time) and then when you decide, you GO 120% until the job, service, or contract is done/fulfilled.” No ifs, ands, or buts! You know the type.

                Once I’m “in” Ark, I go all out and do the damndest best I can seeking more and more perfection. Then 10-11 years later when two particular major events occured in my life — one being the 17-Missing Years — all bets were off. What resulted from the next 3-7 years was a complete loss and abandoning by all of that church-life and fellow Believers; some 200-250 people, many of them dear friends, gone.

                Like

  4. And since his lively Hood, career and whole identity relies on maintaining what he cannot maintain any other way by faith, it’s unlikely he will ever enter Recovery, barring some catastrophic event.

    Liked by 2 people

        1. Most Christians just don’t know. When they find out, I still believe most will deconvert. Mel is one if the few who knowing, doesn’t care that it’s not true. It’s a job for him and he’s holding on no matter what

          Liked by 2 people

          1. KIA:

            few folks have the integrity to blow away a lifetime commitment (and lucrative career/business) just ‘cos of a little integrity.
            Even if the Pope himself were confronted in his bedroom by God Himself, who told him that He (God) simply doesn’t exist … do you honestly think he (Pope) would give it all up? (CLUE: I certainly don’t …)

            Liked by 2 people

              1. Some would call such hypocrites. I think pragmatic better; and they are still in the right place to perform—however two-facedly— ‘good works’.

                The alternative is quit and get an honest job. Brrrrr.

                Like

  5. “It really is a faith issue in the end”

    This seems to be somewhat of a concession (or confession) here. Is he saying that faith is the “evidence” people have been asking him about? I think that I felt the same way when contemplating why I believed back when I did. Some people want evidence but what did I actually have? I had faith and nothing more. It all comes down to faith. I believed because I believed. I can’t explain why I believed in a way that makes sense to those who don’t believe, but it’s all I had to go on. I was so sure of Christianity being real when I was in it. Looking back, all I had to prove it was real was my feelings. Not very convincing to others, but admitting that all you have is a feeling and not empirical proof is at least an honest answer. Not sure if that’s what he was actually trying to say here or not, but that’s all I had (back when I believed) and I have no problem admitting it.

    There may be some other reasons (evidence to him) that bolster Mel’s claims and his convictions, but in the end I feel he’s very much like I was. He believes in something that changed his life and when others ask for evidence to prove it, all he has is faith. Faith is okay. I believe because I believe. That’s an acceptable answer. I know it’s true. Well, now that’s where some people get a little lost and need more information. How do you know it’s true? How can I know? Show me. When proof is requested and faith is the only answer you have, well….that’s not going to be a satisfactory response to most people.

    I agree with Nan. I think Mel can be a nice guy…when he’s not feeling like he’s being attacked. He may say things we don’t all agree with and that’s okay. Obviously we say things that rub him the wrong way as well. When it’s Mel against the world, I can see why he lashes out a bit. Right or wrong, being ganged up on doesn’t feel so good. He takes a lot but also dishes it out. I don’t think he intended his blog to be like that. He may be wrong at times, but having to defend himself from so many in opposition? I wouldn’t want to be in Mel’s shoes.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. I believed because a part of me let go of my own agency, easily done when one is wounded (and 13 years old.) Who you going to call? Jesus Christ. Where does your information come from to make that decision? From people not so very unlike yourself who are the elders, the learned, the ones in positions of leadership and power and for some reason when it comes to religion, we hand ourselves over to those people. We trust them and often without understanding why, we believe “they” have the answers. All wrapped up in, Jesus Christ.

      Liked by 4 people

    2. @ Ben
      He has suggested he almost lost everything dear to him and was somehow saved. I still do not understand what the hell that crap ”saved” means.

      So once again, as in so many instances I have read, there was some sort of major upheaval with emotional trauma involved.
      He comes from a Christian background even if not raised as one (I don’t know for sure) so Christianity was the obvious choice.

      If you read his older posts you will see he is into punting Christianity more from a faith/traditional initiative rather than this new, arrogant metaphysical let’s try baffle the atheists with bullshit kick he is on.

      If he gets pissed about having to defend himself then he shouldn’t punt such garbage.
      Besides, if you read his about pages you will see he quite likes a bit of ”How’s your father” as my grandad used to refer to confrontation.
      Always bear in mind he relishes the opportunity to indoctrinate kids with this shit and beleives we are all going to some sort of Hell when the lights go out for good.
      When I consider this I am inclined to recall the Led Zeppelin song – No Quarter!
      And for the record, it was he who ventured onto Nan’s blog first if memory serves. I certainly did not go looking for him.

      Liked by 2 people

      1. I don’t know what “saved” means either. He was already a Christian, right? I thought you couldn’t lose salvation once saved so I’m not sure what that was about. I’m still fairly new here so I hadn’t heard that about him.

        I can see why Christianity is the obvious choice for so many people. My parents were Christian so it was an easy choice for me. If they had been Muslim, then guess what? I would most likely be Muslim myself. Or Buddhist or Jewish, etc… Your environment dictates your religion nearly all of the time.

        Christianity is a faith based religion and always has been. Evidence for it is certainly lacking so you need a whole lot of faith to belong to that group. Deism is different and that’s why I leaned that way after leaving Christianity. I couldn’t prove Jesus did it but deism allowed me to still believe that God did it. Which God? Any God. As long as there was a god involved, I was okay with it.

        I agree with your statement of “If he gets pissed about having to defend himself then he shouldn’t punt such garbage.”

        As I told him on his page, both sides to be respectful or we end up just butting heads instead of making any progress. (and nobody wants to be a butthead) If he dishes it out, he certainly should expect some of it back and vice versa. If things are said that are unsavory or malicious just to get a response then nobody should be surprised that the responses are going to be less than kind.

        Indoctrination of anything is not okay, especially Christianity. Everything in life needs to be explored on our own terms and we each need to decide what is right or wrong. Telling anyone they not only should they believe in something but “NEED to believe in it” carries a lot of responsibility. Namely evidence. I know that word causes much name calling and is a bone of contention on blog posts. If you believe by faith alone then that is sufficient for your own personal use. If you say it’s all true and teach people that they need to learn it and live it, then you had best make sure you have lots of evidence to back up such claims. Without it, conversion of anyone is going to be an uphill battle.

        Liked by 2 people

      2. ARK at 1744

        ‘Saved’ quite simply means that love of God has saved them. Okay, saved their souls … from eternal damnation and hellfire.

        Saved them, in fact, from the perpetual agony that God set up for them in the first place (Mel—no?)

        Liked by 1 person

          1. “Wasn’t”, Ark? Do you know something about God that we haven’t been told? Do we have to start gathering lillies and pressing the ol’ suit?

            Like

  6. A simple way to look at all this is…some people want to believe and some people want to know.

    We and others like us are in the want to know group and Mel and his type are want to believe people. Many of you are deconverts and the inner desire to know overrode the desire to believe, which is a very good thing.

    Reality is always best even when it can disappoint because it makes you stronger and can see you free and you become a member of the real world and all its warts. No more delusions..no more fantasies, but new tools to engage in life and all the wonderful things it has to offer.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. MARY:

      Hah! You WILL know once you have been taken up by the Dark Angel and have passed through the veil … until then it’s all a question of faith. Faith in anything in this field is faith in the utterances of go-betweens, and in that respect often it’s “whovever gets there firstest with the mostest” who gets to slam and bolt the door in the face of other hopefuls.

      Like

  7. It really is a faith issue in the end, even if one only believes in empirical evidence.

    Here is an example of people practicing traditional “faith” in something that truly does not exist for many, MANY generations and never asking questions or near enough questions.

    In West Africa one of the deadliest viruses was perpetuated by “faith” or traditional customs or “evil-entities” angry at a people. It’s called the Ebola virus. When infected family members came down with symptoms and eventually died, surviving family — who have already cared for the sick person for weeks — would keep the now dead body in the home, even sleeping with the corpse, for a period of time because that was their long-held tradition until burial. Soon those persons and family members without proper education/science and medical treatment and/or prevention, would contract the virus and perpetuate it toward an epidemic… all because of traditional customs, ignorance, or “faith.”

    That’s what happens to humans when they STOP asking all the necessary questions, ESPECIALLY the hardest and most painful questions that might/will determine “they are wrong,” and instead choose “faith” (ignorance) over progress, over evolved learning, over MORE LIFE in many ways. What is even scarier in this scientifically learned proven scenario is that on the cellular level, diseases and viruses ADAPT over time (if allowed) in order to survive themselves! If we don’t do the same thing, constantly improving our intelligence and sciences, we will go extinct with “faith” or more accurately “denial.”

    Liked by 3 people

  8. If what Mel’s saying is true, then anyone can make anything a faith issue by fiat. I could assert that heaven is nothing but tentacle sex and cotton candy. The afterlife is unknown, so I can be just as right as anyone else. In fact, I could buttress my beliefs by saying that we know what heaven is like because lots of people like sex and cotton candy.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. …heaven is nothing but tentacle sex and cotton candy.

      Say WHAT!!!??? 😍 Umm, immediate directions please!? I must find this place right away! SB, do you have images, GPS coordinates, and is there room service!? 🤩

      Like

  9. @ Sirius Bizinus

    It isn’t tentacles, sex, and cotton candy at all! Heaven is actually howling, green apples, and stick-beating — oh yeah, and no longer having to miraculously avoid human cameras for several centuries! The REAL true faith is Sasquatchanity you nincompoop! 😉 😛

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

w

Connecting to %s