Yahweh in the Dock.

The topic of so-called objective morality is currently the flavour of the moment on several blogs and as mentioned in the previous post on this topic is one of the more nonsensical aspects of Christianity.

And yet, it is always worth looking at.

For the Christian , Yahweh is the source of human morality.  Meaning that, no matter whether you are for the  argument of Creationism or the evidence of Evolution, to the theist Yahweh is in the mix somewhere.

John Zande mentioned in one comment that, for an ISIS member to be chosen as a suicide bomber this is considered a high honour. Based on the video evidence of emotion this seems to be the case.

To the Muslim, Allah is the source of all morality. Though the above example is hardly one the average Christian would call moral.

History is replete with factual examples of Christians slaughtering each other in the name of Yahweh, and only the minority would have considered their actions  anything other than moral. If the Church declared such and such a sect heretical, it was often open season on its members who were, all too frequently persecuted unto virtual extinction. The Cathars always comes to mind. So, with a metaphorical bible in one hand and a very real sword, axe or butcher’s knife in the other, millions of Christians were dispatched to meet their maker who would, presumably, make short shrift judging them and condemn them to Hell.

 

And what of the moral standard of this god?

In the bible there are numerous examples of Yahweh commanding this one or that to engage in slaughter.

Such examples have been challenged by certain Christians as not being the Word of God (sic) at all, but merely humans being … well …. humans, I suppose.

So Yahweh commanding Moses or Joshua to enact genocide is simply poor interpretation on the part of the biblical writers (Moses or not Moses depending on your interpretation) and the account of Yahweh killing every living thing on the face of the planet bar one soon-to-be-incestuous family is  moral as Yahweh is perfect. Notwithstanding the fact that evidence tells us the entire episode is  absolute nonsense, of course.

According to Christians, although  Yahweh sent his son, Jesus to save humankind, and for this he had to die, humans are ultimately responsible for this death. His blood is on our hands, even though we are told His (sic) death was preordained and necessary. Sounds a bit like entrapment to me.

As murder is generally recognised as  wrong and as Yahweh is claimed to be omnipotent why did he send his son knowing full well he would be murdered, thus damning humanity – His own creation, to boot ?

But if he rose from the dead did he really die?  Yes, I know. But it’s all right, it makes no sense to me either.

Is this an example of other-centered selfless love or the most heinous case of  immorality imaginable?

Even if it could be shown that some deity from a book of  palpable nonsense was responsible for our morals, that he was the ultimate source, based on his actions wouldn’t you be filled with utter contempt and revulsion?

All we can say is thank god …. whichever one you like ( Personally, I prefer Evolution) … that – as I was always told as a kid – you make your bed you lie on it.

Ark


84 thoughts on “Yahweh in the Dock.

  1. Ark … your dyslexia is showing again: it’s spelled with the same letters but in reverse order; the Grand Ultimate Morality of the universe isn’t G – O – D …

    Liked by 2 people

          1. Correction: Of course, I believe murdering little children is barbaric, if that’s what was actually going on, which it wasn’t.

            Really? And yet, he acknowledges the moral rightness of Ezekiel’s vision.
            Yahweh couldn’t come up with a single workable alternative than ordering the Babylonians to commit mass murder?
            There’s a guy you want to work for right?

            Liked by 2 people

          2. The ‘vision’ is actually a promise of something to come. At best, as I pointed out, Mel could call it a threat. That, though, doesn’t alter the moral repugnancy of the passage. Threat, promise, actual event: it’s all mass murder.

            Liked by 1 person

          3. Exactly. And there are numerous passages that are overt. Direct commands from Yahweh.
            But Mel has said this is not Yahweh’s nature, therefore they are obviously not his commands.
            This puts him at loggerheads with the likes of WLC and DCT of course …. but he no doubt respects people like Craig as a Christian! Even though people like Craig are, according to Mel, flat out wrong about Yahweh. Because Mel has interpreted scripture. Which is also at odds with some of the doctrine of his own church.

            And we are, once again, back to interpretation and why these people are such gigantic hypocrites.

            Mel, with all his rhetoric and clever sounding terms and videos is desperate to show that morality is bestowed upon us by Yahweh, yet, aside from the fact Yahweh is simply a literary construct,he is also the worst moral monster imaginable!
            According to Mel, Moses and the Exodus are factual historical events, but the heinous barbarity Yahweh commands Moses and Joshua to perpetrate were not in fact commands from Yahweh at all! Who knew?
            So, therefore, using this standard, the ”Passover” was also not Yahweh and Moses and his crew escaped without any intervention from Yahweh?

            It makes one’s head spin.

            Liked by 1 person

          4. And a gentle reminder that all this is happening on a series of posts claiming there exists an objective, fixed moral foundation. The sheer dissonance required to not see the contradiction is astonishing.

            Liked by 2 people

          5. Remember this comment from Amanda?

            The Bible isn’t God, Ark. And you told me the Bible is untrustworthy.
            Therefore, why in God’s name are you talking about the Bible? It has NOTHING to do with this conversation. We’re talking about GOD–not a verse in the Jewish Torah.

            Liked by 1 person

          6. Imagine sitting through a lecture on Divine Command Theory from Craig then listening to Wally explain YEC and how god obliterated life on Earth 6000 years ago and straight after a sermon from Pastor Mel on other-centered-love (gag) and how Yahweh did not commit all those atrocities and it is all misinterpretation.

            Liked by 2 people

    1. If good and evil (subjective at best) exist abstractly, and we have to stumble on them apparently by accident (or a sound thrashing by our superiors), then what the hell is the point? Much morality is built in to each person. We all have a bump of it, one way or another. The rest is imposed from outside, as a visible, communal thing.
      I have a strong bump of “thou shat not steal”, which includes borrowing without asking, the thread that goes back to the store because I forgot to pay for it, money-on-the-sidewalk in a noticeable amount, or “oh here, this was for you, I found it on my desk…”–however, if hard pressed I can lie like a bad hairpiece, that is to say noticeably and not well at all…but these are things I was born with. For someone else they would think nothing of walking out of a store with half of it in their pocket, but they would never drive above the speed limit.

      But the public, group morality is strong in all of us, and probably is the one thing that keeps most of us out of jaul if not out of trouble. Which by the way has little or nothing to do with sin, which IS an abstract, and can be stretched or shrunk to fit almost any occasion.

      Liked by 4 people

      1. Sin is an invention of the religious and relates directly to anything that might piss off Yahweh.
        And for that we have to turn to the bible.
        ”Have you felt your kids have shown disrespect toward you lately? It’s okay, you have God’s(sic) permission to stone them. And that’s not all ….”

        Liked by 2 people

        1. And for that we have to turn to the bible.

          One Part of the two sub-parts of Special Revelation (from Yahweh). The only aspect of their “faith” that ISN’T so damn abstract with hyper-mobile goal-posts, but is fixed, tangible AND testable as well as verifiable — and has been found lacking and unreliable. Case closed by intelligent logical standards.

          Liked by 2 people

  2. Any God derived from the biblical stories cannot be a moral person in any way, shape, or form. Neither Christians or Muslims or Jews have any basis for pointing us to the ‘moral’ dictates or pronouncements of such a being. Barbaric.

    Liked by 5 people

      1. Yahweh doesn’t actually exist outside the pages of the old and new testament. But if he did, he wouldn’t be worthy of anything other than fear. Certainly not worship or love… or emulation.

        Liked by 4 people

          1. I read the comment thread on Mel’s 2/24 post. Why is it so difficult for some Christians to be honest about what the bible teaches about gods morality in the OT? Why does it seem to be impossible to get a straight answer that is not disgustingly condescending and arrogantly disrespectful?

            Liked by 1 person

          2. You have my sympathies, and my respect for walking away.
            Now we just have to get your head right about the gun issue and you will be almost normal … like me!
            🙂

            Liked by 2 people

          3. Nan, you’re psychic. I just read through the first four comments (between KIA and IB) and her phrase, “Stupidity is a self-inflicted form of foolishness” — oh, my – does she ever listen to herself???

            Liked by 2 people

          4. I read it. Phew, these people are so far out there it does one’s head in.
            What sort of indoctrination has that woman been subject to that she refers to herself as a moron?
            Jesus H! Talk about How to Destroy One’s Sense of >Self Worth!
            When our kids were small we were very very careful not to use negative inflammatory language and always told the children they were smart.

            Like

  3. For more recent Christian supported morality. Read these 3 paragraphs.

    “Nearly one-third of the roughly 600 gravesites in Peaceful Valley Cemetery belong to a child, advocates say.”

    “Child advocates estimate that 183 Idaho children have died because of withheld medical treatment since states across the nation enacted faith-healing exemptions in the early 1970s. Many of the gravesites at Peaceful Valley remain unmarked, however, concealing information about the lives and deaths of those buried there.”

    “Followers of Christ members eschew birth control, normally give birth at home and frequently forgo prenatal care. They often home-school children and go without birth certificates, making efforts to track faith-healing deaths difficult.”

    These people are what make me cringe, it is bad enough they indoctrinate kids but then this band of brainless Christians allow their children to die because they depended on God rather than use medical help. They should lock them all up, that is what would happen to atheists if they were that stupid.

    Liked by 4 people

    1. “Child advocates estimate that 183 Idaho children have died because of withheld medical treatment since states across the nation enacted faith-healing exemptions…”

      Where’s the problem?
      The withholder is doing God’s will and shall go to Heaven for it, the kiddies concerned are spared a life of (God-imposed) trials and tribulations, becoming instant martyrs instead and shall go to Heaven for it; the undertaker makes his buck, the taxman gets his cut, the parents and family concerned have (a) made a sacrifice in faith that will be duly recorded by YHVH’s Recording Angel and (b) removed some gullible genes from the pool and (c) are observed to be good (exemplary~!) members of The Faith …

      It goes on, and on, win/win all round if you ask God.

      Like

  4. You know I couldn’t even read these other religious type’s posts. My head would explode. It would be like dealing with aliens from some other planet. Any fool knows morals come from man. I just can’t fathom how people in the 21st century believe all this god religious lunacy and the bible and other so called holy books.

    These people are nuts and yes, I realize, there are many. You guys (many of you) are proof that reason and logic can eventually override childhood indoctrination, gullibility, fear and maybe the need to belong to a “group think.” But the critical point is a willing to think, read the actual history of religion and all it’s depravities and just use common sense. All this nonsense about evil, creationism, god’s morality, worship, heaven and hell, afterlife and on and on ad nauseum, is just totally unfathomable to me in the modern world.

    As hopeless as it seems for Christians to think for themselves, the Mideast is even more entrenched and really has reached a point in time that it may very well be too late for them. My fear is that we,as a country, may go the same way. There has been some progress, but the fact that it is not about 30% non believer and 70% believer (which is more what I’d expect at this point in time) does not bode well.

    I strongly believe that religion is the most destructive, abusive, cruel and ridiculous thing ever invented by man.

    Liked by 4 people

  5. I have yet to have a Christian, any Christian, clearly state what this morality is. All I get is yada, yada, yada. If a Christian is reading this, please state this morality so that it is able to be understood and discussed. So far, all I have gotten is the Golden Rule and that predates Judaism/Christianity. And if that is all there is too it, it is very feeble and Christians are not interpreting it correctly.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. The sad thing is, these dudes give all Christians a bad rap. There are perfectly normal folks out there, living the life they grew up with, and many of them would be horrified by the behavior and attitudes of people like Mel and Branyan and the others, who villifiy anyone who does not think they way they do.
    Most of my neighbors, as far as I know, are Christian, and I doubt if they ever discuss the evils of atheism, or even care very much. It’s only a big deal in their lives when the minister comes visiting, or they go to church.

    No one asks me what religion I am, and that’s fine with me. I don’t ask them, either…

    Liked by 3 people

  7. I have wasted lots of words explaining to Mel in painstaking fashion his deep confusion about the term ‘morality’.

    It is an umbrella word that describes an artificial subjective spectrum upon which we can then place positive and negative consequences of behaviour in order to compare and contrast by objective effects. It’s a biological means to perceive the evolutionary benefit to fitness for reciprocity. It does not describe an actual thing, an actual sense organ that collects data, an actual objective neurophysiological condition; it is a term we use to describe our neurological ability to imagine ourselves in the place of the Other.

    Mel believes otherwise.

    He honestly believes it to be a term that describes a ‘thing’ like an invisible compass that an invisible formless entity magically inserts into real people at conception, a sense genetically inherited but one that is broken, that is flawed, that is subject to being polluted by desires, an inherited and intentional programming weaknessr, a sense that works only by ongoing guidance from and submission to the critter that supposedly perfectly designed ‘it’ this way in order to demand either obedience or annihilation. a designed free will ‘choice’ that demonstrates a universal love for humanity: obey or burn.

    It’s so batshit crazy that it requires an irrational faith to trump facts. And that’s just the starting point.

    No amount of facts contrary to Mel’s notion can sway him or his ilk because the moral argument is essential to create an artificial need for his god’s ongoing meddling and direction in human affairs. It’s entirely an artificial creation. It’s a power grab, a means for the devout to avoid personal moral responsibility for their actions and just do what they are told to do. It’s morally retarded and immature and irresponsible. It’s the ‘Just following order’ argument.

    That’s that. Case closed. Shut up and obey. Or be tortured for eternity. Let’s call it ‘love’.

    Mel has a need to believe something is the case so he makes shit up to suit it, trolls the internet for anything that might seem to support it, posts his selection as if he has been convinced by something other than his fundamental faith to believe something is the case FIRST, collects this irrational detritus, and then fobs it off as if demonstrating his point time after time after time, as if this garbage had merit independent of his faith that it does. This is religious apologetics hard at work: lyin’ fer Jesus in this case and pretending that being so intentionally deceitful is justified because it’s moral to do so!

    It’s so absurd an argument that it’s laughable… if only it weren’t so freaking pernicious and ubiquitous.

    This leaky argument he recycles is impervious to correction and unable to incorporate knowledge. It possesses no inherent factual, knowledgeable, knowable, or insightful value whatsoever. It is unwise and dishonest and irresponsible. It’s a house of cards. It is a means to continue to try to fool the gullible, fool the credulous, fool those who go along with the ‘moral’ charade that is faith-based religious belief in action, into assuming it has some vague merit on the basis that it is pious, that it has some patina of ‘divine’ wisdom and so is therefore respectable, when it is in fact idiotic and stupid and counter productive to us coming together and knowing anything in common about any moral scale (Harris’ argument). And that’s why the exact reasoning Mel uses is identical in form with the argument for any submission to any totalitarian leader, for the rationalizing of doing terrible things in the name of divine morality. And scripture demonstrates exactly this with divinely directed genocides and episodes of mass murder, of cruelty, of actions contrary to our sense of reciprocity, as well as acts of moral corruption to do go along and commit heinous things upon real people in real life to please this invisible moral blackmailer and avoid personal responsibility for these actions. Obey or else.

    The moral argument is a means to try to rationalize moral corruption. That’s what Mel is trying to sell: moral corruption in the name of God. Those who go along with it are at best morally suspect.

    Liked by 7 people

      1. I have to be very careful what I write on my blog posts these days as I care quite a lot about those that visit here.
        So with all due respect Prof I would prefer it if you considered my readers as well, most of whom are not quite up to speed with asterisks.
        In future, just write FUCK, okay?

        Liked by 5 people

        1. Ark,

          ∀ r = in unicode’s i’s so claiming 1 # is > or < another makes 0 ¢

          + discrimination is ¬ nice @ all & creates ∞ ÷

          ∴ { } yourself for a severe \

          Like

  8. agreed. I was reminded, in reading this, of my husband’s cousin, basically a sweet woman but a 7th Day Adventist. Hell, no one’s perfect. She was also an inch away from being a flat-earther and I never dared ask, but she and I got into a tussle about glaciers. “Oh no, there’s no such thing as glaciers…”
    “excuse me? What about all those carbon dated scraped rocks and huge ancient bould–”
    “no no” she said, firmly. “God put them there.”
    “Er.”
    “He aged the rocks and put them there to fool us.”

    Another day: She was telling me how “God took the wheel and steered her back onto the road” during a sleet storm.
    “well”, I said, “you were driving…”
    “no no. He was steering…”
    “How did you come to go off the road in the first place?”
    “The devil grabbed the wheel and forced the car into the ditch.”
    “Julie, do you ever take credit for ANYTHING you do?”

    “Why? God protects me” I’m not sure from what, judging from the mess she made of her life, I suspect he was out playing cards with the guys when the call for help came in over the head phones…

    Liked by 5 people

    1. Judy, and now you see why the field of psychology, neurology, endocrinology, psychiatry, paleoanthropology, and behavioral sciences and as importantly agnotology… are all fields we MUST expand, perfect, and support!!!

      Liked by 3 people

          1. Don’t blame the pill for estrogen in drinking water

            Contrary to popular belief, birth control pills account for less than 1 percent of the estrogens found in the nation’s drinking water supplies, scientists have concluded in an analysis of studies published on the topic. Their report suggests that most of the sex hormone — source of concern as an endocrine disruptor with possible adverse effects on people and wildlife — enters drinking water supplies from other sources.

            https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208125813.htm

            Liked by 1 person

  9. WAIT A MINUTE!!! As I was reading your excellent introduction into this apparently SIMPLE elementary concept of The Origins of Morality… my cranial compass needle began jerking and spinning!!! NOW I am more confused than Theists, particularly the Xian and Islam theists, than I have ever been before!!! 😨

    DAMN IT Ark!!! 🤬 🤛

    ^ ^ ^ satire/sarcasm ^ ^ ^

    Liked by 1 person

        1. Ah .. on that score I cannot match you. When my missus once suggested divorce I replied:
          ”What about ’til death us do part?”
          She said …
          ”Well … if you insist. As we don’t have a gun and knives are messy, how about you lie down in the driveway and I’ll reverse over you?”
          As you can imagine, I’ve been a nervous wreck ever since.

          Liked by 1 person

          1. Unfortunately I can’t do without my wife. I haven’t been able to find a You Tube showing how to sew a button, and they don’t make ironing boards in my size.

            Liked by 1 person

          2. She sounds like a fun gal—now shuddup, go sit down, and eat your mushroom omelette like a good one, Ark … or if she’s a bit more subtle, I understand that bitter almond is the essence of the personal blue cupcake?

            Liked by 2 people

  10. I’ve often pondered the bit you’ve put into these words—

    So Yahweh commanding Moses or Joshua to enact genocide is simply poor interpretation on the part of the biblical writers

    The Bible, of course, being the Guiding Light of the true Christian—the infallible WOG.
    (Word of God, dammit.)
    Repeat: infallible.

    So how can it possibly be “poor interpretation”? Hmmmmmm? C’mon, Smartie … I’m waiting~?

    Hah!
    Thought so!

    Off you go then, to the ‘naughty room’ and don’t come out until you’ve said (with true repentance) a hundred Hail Argies …

    Liked by 2 people

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