Because it’s Sunday. And the designer of the universe is ….

Probably one of the most difficult discussions to have with a Christian is about a creator.

It certainly seems to be one of their favorite topics if the internet is anything to go by, and especially from all the debates between such luminaries as  the late Christopher Hitchens, Sam Harris, John Lennox, William Lane Craig, Sean Caroll etc etc.

But I feel the subject is never tackled from a completely neutral perspective, as  the Christian will always be arguing for their god, naturally, even when they are claiming they are simply trying to demonstrate design in the universe. And of course, with design comes a designer. Or so they wish everyone to believe and accept.

This is, of course is drawing conclusions that, while on the face of it might seem fair, are not, in fact, correct.

And there are several very clever examples that theists use to try to prove this point. I am rather partial to the one that goes something like this: A wind blows through a junk yard, randomly picking up bits and pieces and somehow manages to build a Boeing 747.

This, they assert is how preposterous it is for the universe to have come about by chance. More or less.  So … There has to be a designer of some sort.

But the term designer also has more than a hint of intent.  For me, it conjures up images of some fantastic being sitting down at a draughtboard , licking the end of his pencil, positioning his slide rule and mumbling … ‘’All righty then! ‘’

And before we know it we are imagining some anthropomorphic being.

But this is not the creator – if there was one -I want to discuss.

And my idea of a creator is certainly not what the theists want to discuss! And their intent is never so transparent either, as we are all only too aware.

I don’t actually believe in any sort of creator, to be honest, but I can’t prove it either way, and I’m  perfectly happy in my ignorance.

But if there is/was a creator does it really matter?

Based on current evidence. Not in the least.

But for the next few sentences let’s assume there is one.

He hasn’t shown himself … oops there I go again, anthropomorphising this creator and being sexist to boot!

Sigh … sorry. I don’t feel comfortable with “It” as in my mind it somehow demeans the genius – assuming there is genius – behind whoever designed the universe.

And we are going to accept in this case that evolution is fact, okay? In case anyone wants to throw a spanner in the works. We are no more than by-products of what happens in an environment that supports carbon-based life forms. Period.

So, based on evidence, she has not revealed herself, not communicated in any recognisable way, has never interfered and has simply done the deed and buggered off.

This to me is as close to deism as I can get. It might not be an exact representation, but for me, it’s good enough. It’ll do just nicely, thanks very much.

To date, this proposition cannot be gainsaid – as far as I am aware, and I stand under correction, of course.

Such a belief carries no baggage, has no doctrine, no special books, no intermediary and no requirements.

You certainly don’t have to howl at the moon without your drawers on or cut bits off your penis or vagina.

No one gets damned or tortured for not believing in this creator and you are not required to wear special clothing, funny hats or eat special foods – or not eat as the case may be. It might be nice if this creator deity could send a message that said: ‘’Don’t Eat Other Animals’’, via an instantaneous worldwide You Tube video or Facebook link but … well, we’ll just have to figure this one out for ourselves.

So, there we are. If you wish to believe in THIS creator deity, then good for you.

Now the question I would like to ask is this: How neutral (read honest)  are Christians when they are arguing that the universe is designed and therefore has a designer?

Should they not be asked to state up front not only the nature of their designer but also it’s name/s and how they came by their information? Once this is revealed should they not then be obliged to demonstrate the veracity of this source?

To my mind this seems only fair, as they are the ones making all the elaborate claims.

Am I truly being unreasonable or should we think it is fair that if we don’t accept their word and rather dubious text we can, in fact , simply all go to hell!

Ark.

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32 thoughts on “Because it’s Sunday. And the designer of the universe is ….

  1. Ark, Richard Dawkins said it was possible this Universe had a “Creator”, but not a Deity. He supposed it could have been a superior life form from a more advanced universe if it were to be possible at all. He didn’t have high hopes this was the case.

    My point is let’s suppose Dawkins is right and a superior life form from an advanced universe did push “the button” to create ours. Let’s suppose they revealed themselves to us. Would Christians be happy and willing to accept this ? My guess is absolutely not !

    If this “creator” didn’t fit their Christian narrative, they would probably refuse to believe it was true. Christians aren’t looking to prove there was a creator. They are only looking to prove their creator , Yahweh

    Liked by 6 people

    1. KC:

      I’d be happy to accept such a being as divine. Whatever and however, whoever, it would be so far removed from our limitations as to entirely qualify for the title.

      But even an optimist like moi would balk at the idea He/She/It would allow itself to be nailed to a cross to save itself from itself. (Delete ‘allow’ … insert ‘program’ …)

      Liked by 3 people

  2. Who created the Creator, then?

    No—not a frivolous or ‘clever’ question, but always treated as such. I’m still awaiting a better answer than ‘He created Himself’ (which applies both ways if at all).

    “she has not revealed herself, not communicated in any recognisable way, has never interfered and has simply done the deed and buggered off…” Aaaaaawwww, come on, Ark~! Have you never read your Bible, or been told about God’s message for Mankind (Personkind if we’re being non-sexist) to the effect of having come down in person (as His son) to deliver the Good News?

    And they call me dum. Sheesh!

    Go ask Mel—he’ll be happy to bring you Truth and Light.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Ark your problem is you don’t read. There was a creator and it is the Christian one. You ask for intent; man was created so as to give names to all the animals and tend the garden.
    Plants and animals except those you can’t eat or dominate were created for man to be their boss.
    Day was by a divine act of force separated from darkness, before that moment, darkness contained light or the other way round. And this was done so we could see where we were going.
    What intent were you asking for, again?

    Liked by 2 people

      1. Well, that happened later. You see with Ham and Noah and the like, and the tower of Babel, the rest of us got an opportunity to show up. Had they not tried the Babel thing, blacks, Mongolians wouldn’t have shown up anywhere.
        They don’t teach you these in school anymore?

        Liked by 1 person

  4. Ark, you constantly seek to have us prove that our God exits… My friend…once you have been filled with the Holy Spirit…the Holy Spirit (God/Christ/Holy Spirit) confirms to our spirit, that we are indeed a redeemed child of God…

    All one has to do is look at the universe, the earth around them with all it’s beauty…and all of nature, with all the amazing abilities given to even to the insects, with a means to protect themselves with various sprays and such from predators…

    You will be forever blinded to the message of the cross, and the truth God reveals in His inerrant Word, the Bible…until God opens your eyes, and allows you to believe… It is all God’s work, and God perfect timing my friend… I continue to pray for you and the gang every morning… Miracles still happen every day…

    Blessings… bruce

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    1. Oh, look kiddies, Bruce has switched off the porn channel long enough to bless us with his presence, insight, and tremendous intellect and biblical knowledge.
      Aren’t we the lucky ones.

      Liked by 1 person

    2. Hello Bruce. We have not talked in a long time. Doesn’t it bother you that the holy ghost spirit thing is circular reasoning. You need the holy spirit to see / believe in god, to get the holy spirit you need to believe in god. IF God exists then it is it does or it doesn’t. Instead you are adding in the hedging of “well he does if this, but he doesn’t if that”. Not really what an all powerful omnipotent deity would be up too. Plus if your deity is so powerful, really the most powerful thing ever in our universe, there would be signs of it in the natural world, even if just bleed off from its presents of existing. We don’t have that. Doesn’t that show you some fault with the reasoning. Maybe your deity is simply not powerful enough to have an effect, intended or otherwise on the natural world. Hugs

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  5. The answer must be if there is a creator, this creator was created somehow by possibly another creator and it may go back through many creators to nothing. As scientists have proven, nothing does not exist so within the nothingness that may have been a bit different from what we know today something happened out of the ordinary and a wobbly particle collided or colluded at a certain angle into the dangle creating what was needed to produce enough intelligence to conceive a creator. Of course, the creators probably cannot explain what nothing is because nothing would also have needed a creator and of course we step up to another creator and on it goes. Is that clear?

    Liked by 4 people

    1. So our God was created by a Godier God? And that One by a more Godier God than Him, and that One by a yet more Godier Godier God … going back to (and beyond) infinity~?

      That makes sense … I like it!

      At last, an explanation I can fall down and worship … if you are starting a new church, to whom do I send my cheques? (The Pope won’t like it, you know … and those cute little fuzzy faced guys now conquering the world for compassionate Islam will add you to their lists—theirs is the only God, don’t forget.)

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  6. I think with Mel and people like him the problem is they start with their conclusion and then work hard to make it all fit to get there. There are people who believe there is an universal energy field, sort of like the Higgs field, and that that energy field may have a level of intelligence or not. They figure the energy from the field can be used by people who can tap into it, and it has an effect on everything in the universe. Some think it is an entity and some think it is a natural phenomenon. I think all of this is a “something more than us is doing what we don’t understand”. A god of the gap argument. I think I have figured out how Mel goes off target with the quantum thing with the help of the internet and Tildeb. But that is off topic. On the subject of a creator, I think it is more an emotional need of the believers than it is a phenomenon. They have some need for a thing that is whatever a deity is for them, so they create it in their minds and then fight like heaven to confirm it. That is what Mel and others have done with the quantum stuff. They reach a point where they can say , we don’t know for sure but it could be, it is possible, you can’t prove it is not… our god. Hugs for all.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. As I keep saying to him … he is approaching this Arse-Backwards, which is blatantly dishonest. He is not trying to show the god I have conjured up in this post, ”Igor, just chuck all the gooey stuff in the glass beaker and stick it on the Bunsen burner and we’ll see what turns up, okay?” but is trying to state emphatically there is purposeful design. But they don’t want to be up front and say ”Surprise! It’s Jesus!”

      The junkyard example is one of their favorites – and has been refuted (I’m pretty sure).
      If you are interested on seeing the other side of the coin and go weak at the knees at the thought of cosmological equations … shudders, deliciously …then look up Luke Barnes.
      A very cagey fellow when it comes to revealing his god belief let me tell you ! One of Unklee’s favorites. That should tell you plenty already.
      But he is a Christian, make no mistake. He is a cosmologist working out of Sydney, Aus and he most definitely believes in a Fine-Tuned Universe, and has written a very long paper or two to explain it. And also a book.
      His papers are longer than most other papers I understand so it must be true as it has more words and more equations, none of which I understand, but one or two probably mean Yahweh or Jesus.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Ark, how egotistical do these people have to be to really think the whole universe was fine-tuned just for them? Regardless that a large part of our own planet is deadly to us, the great majority of the universe is so life threatening it is a good thing we can’t go anywhere in it. We grew on this planet like mold spores because we adapted to it, not it to us. I think of people as opportunistic parasites on the planet. Someone once said if we were in another universe with different natural laws we would have evolved differently to fit those laws. Really tired. Going to lay down. Hugs

        Liked by 1 person

      2. Junkyard is just a variation on “If an infinite number of monkeys sits down with an infinite number of typewriters, sooner or later they’ll produce the entire Holy Bible.”

        Liked by 2 people

  7. Ark, you asked this question in your post: But if there is/was a creator does it really matter?

    My answer is “Nope.” Personally, I simply live and enjoy each day that is given to me. If someone/something is involved, then so be it. But I could really care less. And quite frankly, IMO, those who think it’s soooo important to “prove” there is such an entity are missing out on the simple pleasures of simply being part of this universe … no questions asked.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Exactly! It make s no difference whatsoever and I think this infuriates theists to the point of driving them a bit doolally.
      And it is usually at this point that we realise just how insidious theism is.

      Over on Mel’s blog, Wally is saying how unashamed he is for preaching/teaching the word to ”little seekers” (sic)!
      This is a bloke who is firmly YEC. who believes in a 10,000 year old earth, dinosaurs existing with humans and a literal Dante Inferno-style hell!
      And he brags about it!
      I am waiting to see if Mel calls him out on this.

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      1. This is one of the reasons I don’t frequent Christian blogs. Their beliefs and the reasoning behind them are so fallacious and, at times, so disturbing … along with just plain old head-shaking ignorant … that it’s simply not worth my time. Occasionally, I admit, I get pulled in, but it’s usually through someone else’s link.

        I guess I just prefer to associate with more level-headed individuals who look at life from a realistic POV.

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  8. Again I state it:

    Religions are created as tools for the unscrupulous to garner wealth (great wealth) and power (great power~!) from the gullible.

    And as always, no takers …

    Liked by 1 person

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