What if I am wrong?

It’s no secret that I am an atheist, and if you have read my blog long enough you’ll know my views on religion and all things related to gods-belief.

However, I have a confession to make, and I might as well make it here.

I worry that I may be wrong.

Seriously, there are times, albeit few, but times nonetheless, that I sit and ponder – what if I am wrong?

What if all my study and research and ordinary common sense are flat out wrong?

What if all those scholars and scientists missed something?

What if archaeologists have been digging in all the wrong places?

What if geneticists and cosmologists missed the boat … and for that matter maybe there truly is an old wooden boat out there waiting to be discovered somewhere on Mount Ararat?

Perhaps there really was an ancient Jewish Rabbi who walked the dusty hills of Galilee; the offspring of an omniscient deity who somehow impregnated a 12-14 year old virgin?

A man who grew to be Yahweh’s son. Who really did return to earth to one of the more impoverished Roman provinces to spread an eschatological message of universal love and peace without any thought for the morrow. Who cured lepers, sent demons into pigs, spat on blind people and made them see and raised dead people and made them walk about like nothing had happened so’s they could return to being poor once more.

Perhaps against all common sense and everything we know, this Rabbi walked on water, told the weather to behave itself, fed thousands upon thousands using a few fish and a few crusts of bread and turned water into wine, with no regard for the teetotalers, even though nobody at the time noticed. It could have happened?

Of more concern, I worry that if I, the unrepentant atheist refuse to admit the reality of all the above that when I die I will have effectively demonstrated that I hate God .. I mean really hate God .. and thus have effectively damned myself to the Hell Yahweh created for eternity with absolutely no chance of review or reprieve or  being free from an eternity of torture. Or maybe I will simply end up in the void … whatever that is … shut off from Yahweh because I made a mistake and didn’t give Him the benefit of the doubt.

And while I still loved my neighbour … or a least got on reasonably well with him, Jesus–Yahweh who preached the doctrine couldn’t find it in himself … sorry … Himself to forgive me when it really counts.

I mean, that is real scary, don’t you think?

What I also wonder is whether  theists ever consider that they might also be wrong, that all of the above is the product of a number of rather cruel and furtive imaginations. That it was simply designed to control people and succeeded quite well by most accounts.

And if we took out the names Yahweh and Jesus and replaced them with Zeus or Poseidon would they be able to see just how messed up their belief system truly is?

Ark

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191 thoughts on “What if I am wrong?

      1. I don’t think so. Why Christianity only? If you are willing to ask this question of all the religions, yes, you’d have a point.
        But then a god who would care about what direction you faced while praying is, in my view, quite petty.
        And while asking yourself this question, maybe my ancestors were right. God is indifferent that is why it rains for everyone. The slave and the slave master.

        Liked by 2 people

        1. Hello Mak. I think even if we could get the people of one major religion to start to question it, to begin to withdraw from the make believe world that their leaders have created for them, and to see reality it would be a great thing. It would start a cascade of religious people questioning their faith and then leaving it for reality. Hugs

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            1. Great question. I know this will make me sound naive or stupid, but I would hope that reason would win over emotion. I know most of religion is emotion based. The best way to get people to listen to reason is to use a person close to them, someone they are attached to emotionally. However reason has to count for something, and it does plant a seed. So I think if we can get them talking about why the atheist is wrong, they will then see how the atheist is actually correct. As they compare and contrast their view with why they view it, they will come closer to being an non-theist. Hugs

              Liked by 2 people

              1. While this looks really great, Scottie, most religious types, especially evangelicals talk of unequally yoked and such silly stuff. An atheist is the last person likely to get to them.

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                1. Maybe, but then think of it this way. A spouse is someone they can and must “fix” to save them. They love them so they can’t be swayed, they must stand strong to save them. Same with a child. However a friend is on equal footing. Plus they have an emotional connect to the theist. So slowly the seed is planted and thoughts begin to work their way in. Hugs

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                2. I have theists friends who still want to pray for me. We have known each other long enough. If doubt was to be planted in their lives, it would now be a tree. So I live and let live and once in a while ridicule their beliefs

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  1. A hidden god is indistinguishable from a non existent one. If god refuses to reveal itself in any meaningful tangible way, then I can’t be held accountable for my non belief. My question would be, why would a god who claims to want love and obedience not make it obvious to the target audience? Why are there multiples of thousands of differing holy scripts? Why are there different gods going far enough back in history as to be lost to time?
    As Shermer says, you’ve made a type 1 error in cognition by “believing” in a god. If you hear a rustle in the grass is it a dangerous predator or just the wind? Assuming it’s a predator is the evolutionary strategy that enabled man to survive. It’s hardwired patterning of the brain. That’s why religion is persistent to this day. It’s an inbred desire for survival in spite of not having information enough or in some cases time enough to make a rational decision.

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  2. As I noted in a blog post last week, religion cannot be seen as substantively flawed, fraudulent, or erroneous in any way because it is built upon the shakiest of foundations – mythological precepts wholly dependent on the loyalty (i.e. faith) of its followers. Second-guessing oneself (i.e. self-reflection) is an intellectual door which believers are warned never to open… for on the other side lays some apparent and inconvenient truths.

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    1. Ok. So I had to googuler Olodumare on the interwebs thingy. Amazing. And ironic. I notice Nigerian religion has in common a “privileged” segment of people authorized to make pronouncements on their “gods” behalf. No recent word from Olodumare himself…..which further illustrates my earlier point.

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  3. For a moment you sounded serious and legit , which would have made you an agnostic , which I think most of us really are. I dont think we have the human capacity to accurately conclude that there is no God or higher being out there ( or within us). We can only speculate until there is some proof of either side. In the mean time, we are all uncertain.

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    1. Noel, I suppose, technically, what you say is true … that we can only speculate and essentially, “we are all uncertain.” But I think there are those who are confident in their atheistic belief. But I could be wrong. Maybe down deep they have their doubts. Personally, I simply can’t fathom the existence of a supernatural being that lives somewhere “out there” and who might actually help me find a parking space.

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      1. Nan, think of Noel’s position (which I share) this way. Someone or some persons, hypothetically speaking, create a new religion based on pantheism. Its precepts state that the entirety of the cosmos (not just our observable universe) is the manifestation of a deity called “Cosmo.” Cosmo is self-aware in a dimension beyond our human perceptions. Cosmo is everything and everything is Cosmo, from inanimate objects to all living things.

        Empirical science, as of today, cannot disprove such an idea because science has yet to discover what triggered the so-called “Big Bang” from which our observable universe evolved (much less the origin and nature of the cosmos). Science can say that other hypotheses are more plausible, but that’s about it. Most scientists today are agnostic on this issue because their empirical nature prevents them from making affirmations of knowledge without the prerequisite evidence.

        If we can assume that science provides humanity’s greatest mechanism for understanding (I believe that it does), then absolutist arguments (e.g. theists: God exists, atheists: gods do not exist) in lieu of factual evidence must be relegated to the status of subjective opinion. And everyone, from an objective viewpoint, must be agnostic.

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    2. @Noel
      Agnostic? No. Not me. Not at all.

      I am atheist through and through, and currently anti-theist, but only because religion pretty much taints everything it is involved in, thanks to its proponents.

      If one wants to be religious… fine… just don’t inculcate it into anyone who is unable to offer a reasoned argument against it.

      Oh, and it would be nice if religious institutions paid taxes too … as a sign of good ”faith” perhaps?

      Liked by 3 people

      1. It’s dangerous when anyone says they’re 100% anything, because that implies absolutism , which is what some of us criticize believers to practice with their faith. If we’re going to be honest with ourselves , we should admit our positions are never absolute and subject to change. The concept of an all knowing , all powerful being seems to stem from our fear of what lies beyond death , so we create a being that gives us relief from the fear of the unknown .. then again, I could be wrong . The all powerful being could be implanting these thoughts in my mind as I type … 😉

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    3. I would call myself 100% atheist. My doubt only lies in the chances that life was seeded on earth purposely by a higher intelligent life form from another planet, and this would be the closest I could ever believe in a supreme intelligence but I expect if true it would be hijacked and called a god by the religious nuts.

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  4. I have never come across any religion that makes a credible attempt to put forward how far beyond our comprehension any overriding intelligence creating or as part of the multiverses or infiniverses would have to be. So they reduce the concepts to puerile anthropomorphism.
    Would this super-intelligence, for reasons related to whatever purpose there might be in the existence of everything, choose to delegate powers to gods believed in? There is an enormous amount of anecdotal corroboration of gods enabling ‘miracles’, though no actual evidence.
    However, if a person has firmly believed in a certain god for their entire lifetime, then does not that god actually exist in their own reality, however ridiculous that reality may seem to a non-believer?

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    1. It is the ”demand” to believe without evidence that is the worst part. And in many cases it is ”believe or else” and apostasy is tantamount to a death sentence in some countries.
      The level of arrogance to believe a human has the right to speak and pass judgment on behalf of an omnipotent being is so utterly ridiculous as to defy belief…. pun intended.,

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      1. Agreed. These people are blind to the self-contradictory or oxymoron-like implications of enforced belief. You believe something, or you don’t. Belief usually demands proof. Exceptions (of which some exist) are where belief arises from an unshakeable inner conviction not requiring proof.

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  5. In your well brewed mix of mish-mashed thoughts, notions, ideas and thinking you argue for and against The one and only unique all-singing all-dancing Divinity? How in God’s name can you possibly be wrong?

    (By the way … what exactly IS God’s name?)

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      1. SNAP~!

        Now I know what name to inscribe on my latest wee statuette—this time I can’t help but get it right, and properly addressed for once my prayers will be answered.

        Thanks a heap, you’ve helped a lot, I was beginning to get a few agnostic twinges there …

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  6. Here is where the arguments between theists and atheists generally takes a side step into insanity.
    I had a argument a while ago with someone where he almost demanded that I, for the sake of the argument, accept that he did exist. I accepted and then upset him no end that it wouldn’t change anything. Except that instead of being an atheist (You can’t be an atheist when the bugger is standing in front of you) I would be a revolutionary against their God.
    Just because he is the supreme being that doesn’t mean I will now my knee to a raving nut-job. Stuff that!
    I am an agnostic atheist. When someone gives me good evidence of a divine being I will accept that he exists. But that is all.
    If only THEY would do the same. *sigh*

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      1. ‘Sup Chuck? B-)
        And yes it is a thing. Generally we are agnostic atheists, skeptic atheists or just plain realists.
        Most rational atheists will respond to facts when given them. The facts that prove a God exists would be no different.

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          1. There are a lot of people that “Find God” In prison… which tends to make me think that it preys on those in desperate situations. That and the poor and unfortunate too.
            I guess that promise that things will be better if you just believe hard enough works for some.

            If you have ever heard of Peter Popoff you will understand what I mean.

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  7. Am I alone in saying I don’t care if any of the deities can be shown to exist or not? They can all be at the Mar-a-Largo in the heavens drinking mead and stuff for all I care about them. What I do care about and fight against, and get upset about is their said ability to dictate my life choices, to limit what I can do, to make my morality into their immorality. As Kalamain said, I refuse to worship any of the gods I have heard about, they do not deserve it. In fact, sad as it is, most of them have far more problems in existence than I do. They all need therapy. I have often said there is not enough help on earth for some people, but for these god’s there is not enough help in the universe. Also some of them would have to be confined for self professed crimes and actions. No best they stay in their realm and I will stay in reality. Some of the best people I know I have met in reality and I am very happy here. I need no gods to muck it up. Thanks all, be well and happy. Hugs

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        1. Yeah, if any god showed up and started striking atheists down I would take my medicine like a man because this god would know that I know he does not exist.

          Ha Ha, I am 100% positive and 100% more confident than these pathetically scared preying grovelling theists that any god is unable to exist outside of the brain and will not send me to hell, but please theists, send your imagined god to my place when he decides to drop down onto this planet and make my day.

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          1. Hello Sklyjd. I like your comment and agree with you. My reason is that if this deity that suddenly appears is one of the many horrible hateful immoral gods people have been talking about and worshipping on this planet, I would rather die than be forced to worship it. However your comment got me thinking and yes I admit I have been torturing myself by watching Sye Ten Bruggencate. As you say we know these imagined gods are created and live in the minds of the theist. So if something is created in one mind, can it be minimised or marginalized by the mind of another? More importantly, does thinking kill deities? If one must deny reality to keep one’s deity then the deity must be harmed by reason. Sufficient reason would kill it, I would think. 🙂 As we know reason does kill deities, and the thinking person can spot the fallacies of religions. Be well. Hugs

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            1. Dead right Scottie, I agree, as much as a god is invented we can uninvent them. The big difference is they live in fear that they may not make the cut for eternal life in heaven and burn for eternity in hell (tremble tremble), whereas we atheists have no fear of such delusions, in fact I spit in the face of their perceived god and I will wait for the lightning to strike me down.

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            2. ‘I admit I have been torturing myself by watching Sye Ten Bruggencate’

              Only those who have watched Sye Ten Bruggencate can fully appreciate that this statement is truer than anything contained in any religious holy book.

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  8. Really excellent post. Of course, in the human mind everything is black and white, right and wrong and you’ve done a great job of delineating the black and white. However, what if you are both wrong?

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              1. You’re a smart guy. If you’re truly interested, I’m sure you can research it. Of course, you could start by rereading by blog. It might give you some hints.

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                1. Thanks for your ”faith” in my smartness.
                  However, if what you have is worth sharing then share it here as anywhere.
                  After all, you popped over. If you continue to be coy and not openly forthcoming with at least some sort of cogent answer you can hardly blame people for drawing their own conclusions regarding your view, which may well misrepresent your opinion entirely.
                  And of course you moderate, which makes it difficult to discuss anything openly.
                  Just lay it on the line.
                  You obviously believe in it and have a modicum of trust in what you beleive, so share it and we can all discuss it.

                  Liked by 1 person

                2. I am not asking you to convince anyone of anything, merely present your findings, opinions and views and the data you have to support them.
                  This can’t be that difficult, surely?

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                3. Now you are repeating yourself.
                  Are you that desperate for traffic or simply unable to offer a reasoned adult response to a simple request?

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                4. For whatever reason, I’ve noticed chicagoja likes to pop in on other peoples’ blogs now and again, offer some erudite comment, and then disappear. Rarely does he expand and discuss. Instead (as he did here), he prefers you go to his blog, read through all his many posts, and then draw your own conclusions. Problem is, even there he tends to be vague and obscure and avoids explaining himself.

                  Takes all kinds, I guess.

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  9. Just as we all know your views, mine are just as out there. To me, stories that aren’t credible are not worth the time and effort. Regardless of which mythology they come from. I admire those of you who spend your time pointing out the (obvious) flaws in religions, but I haven’t got the appetite to write about something, that is, quite frankly, rubbish in the first place. Who, with an ounce of common sense believes in virgin births, stairways to heaven (led zep excepted), living in a whale, talking animals and reptiles, and Noah’s ark? To name but a few. Victoria and others will now tell me indoctrination is a powerful thing.

    I shall off and write about compulsory prostitution in Germany which IS real, and far more important.

    Liked by 3 people

    1. Important yes, .but more important than say the current conflict in Syria?
      Don’t fall for the sham that xians might have you beleive this is just about Christianity.

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            1. Who says I am in any way putting women on the ”back burner”?
              And no, of course women should not be forced into prostitution. What a daft thing to say!
              However if you are looking for a cut and dry yes or no answer … then to be honest, yes, the brutal war in Syria is more important than the current prostitution issue you are highlighting.

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              1. You are prioritising a war, of which there are always loads, over compulsory prostitution in a so-called western civilised country. Run by Christian Democrats (ha!). You always miss the point with feminism.

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                1. You can’t come back from death, no matter what the religious tell you, and in war there are far worse horrors than prostitution, you get bet your backside on that.
                  I generally don’t miss any points, as a matter of fact.
                  That you ”just can’t grasp it” when it comes to religion is probably the main reason you prefer to focus on other points of contention.

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                2. No you can’t come back from death. And I’ve seen a dead prostitute taken out from a brothel. She won’t come back either. You’ve woken up at 5am to see that?
                  There are lots of things in war. It often involves raping women. Which is like prostitution. Non-consensual sex.

                  There are plenty of pontificators about religion. Less about women’s rights, animal cruelty, vegetarianism and the environment. We all stick to our knitting.

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                3. As religion is one of the major causes for the historic and continued marginalizing and degradation of women I would think you might be a bit more vocal against it rather than simply say you ”can’t grasp it” in a somewhat dismissive tone and take not-so-subtle side-swipes at me?

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                4. I prefer to look at the classist patriarcal oppression. Rather than wasting time on negating silly books, or trashing archaeology, or arguing about Noah’s ark or whether Jesus existed. Not. Relevant. To. Feminism. Clear? Of course Jews, Muslims and Christians are sexist. But arguing about the tenets of religion does nothing for women. When have you ever written a post supporting women? Usually taking the piss in the pub as I recall.

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                5. We all fight the battles we feel we can.
                  You obviously know a lot about feminism and not much about the history of religion, or so it seems.
                  I support your stance on feminism, and certainly would never think of writing something such as ”I can’t grasp it”.

                  As for feminism, I rather defer to those who are more knowledgeable and better equipped, such as you, and do my bit where I can.

                  When dealing with people who have been severely harmed by religious abuse I really don’t think ”Soz” cuts it.

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                6. Nah. I only spent three years cutting it for my first degree. You were probably doing your hairdressing apprenticeship at the time. What did you know about religion at 20?

                  Soz, and I cant’t grasp it? I can’t understand it. I don’t think there is anything to say. I am being honest. No more, no less. What do you expect? A lad of shit?

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                7. I only spent three years cutting it for my first degree.

                  Yeah , I know you did, and if you studied the implications of religious indoctrination you would understand why I beleive your ”Soz, I can’t grasp it” remark all the more difficult to square away.

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                8. Sorry, you’ll have to explain that sentence, I think I might have missed something.

                  You are playing with books and can’t even write properly

                  .

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      1. I don’t understand the second sentence here? But the first one does sound like you are trying to rile RoughSeas up. She has a cause she cares passionately about, no need to compare it to a cause others care passionately about.

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        1. Because of snide comments like this :

          I shall off and write about compulsory prostitution in Germany which IS real, and far more important.

          Tell that to a Syrian kid who just saw his parents blown to shit!

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            1. In the second comment a comparison was then drawn using my daughter being forced into prostitution or lose state benefits, brushing aside the Syrian war and trying to evoke an emotional response using my kid as bait.

              First: Although the law in Germany sounds bloody stupid and ( in my view) disgusting it didn’t seem as though anyone had as yet lost any state benefits for refusing to ”whore themselves”, and from my reading most of the article focused on the opening of the largest brothel in Europe etc etc rather than the main focus of Roughseas comments and her subsequent post.
              Maybe I missed something? I am open to be corrected.

              Second: I don’t know if any such test cases have been put before a court, – I haven’t come across anything as yet – but it would be interesting to read of the outcomes.
              Also, I suspect with several other European nations re-looking at the whole issue of prostitution and decriminalizing the seller but prosecuting the buyer, especially in light of UN stats on human trafficking, Germany may well follow suit at some point in the future, and not least because of the large influx of refugees Merkel is allowing into the country, many of whom will be easy targets for such Traffickers.

              Third: As we write in an open forum we are free to write about what ever we feel like.
              I don’t come on to your blog and tell you your flower and cat posts are a waste of time, any more than I would go onto her blog and tell her that vegetarianism or feminism is a waste of time either!
              To then wave the ”I-have-a-degree-and-you-don’t-card” is churlish, as it does not require a degree to investigate and understand the damage religious indoctrination has done to many deconverts, some of whom are open enough to pop over and share their stories.
              And to compound this by taking a sideswipe at my ”playing with books” and I ”can’t write properly” is simply laughable.
              Maybe I should have replied, ”Oh yeah? Well you’re ugly and y’mam dresses you funny.”

              Oh, and as Roughseas is a former journalist I am surprised that, while not downplaying the factual aspects, she would not recognize the sensationalist value of such a story. But then, her leaning toward the sensational does come across somewhat in the title of her post on the topic:

              ”Fuck or Lose your benefits”

              which is not entirely accurate, is it?

              *Smile*

              And since this post went up the US has bombed Syria and we may see the beginnings of some serious fun and games.

              And religion is there right in the middle of it all….

              Liked by 1 person

    2. roughseasinthemed: “Who, with an ounce of common sense believes in virgin births, stairways to heaven (led zep excepted), living in a whale, talking animals and reptiles, and Noah’s ark?”

      Zoe: Me. :/

      Liked by 4 people

        1. Looks like feminists are on a looser because God was sexist. Have you heard of the “Curse of Eve”? obviously, a punishment only for women and this is good confirmation that God put more blame on Eve than Adam with the good man was ruined by a bad woman attitude. Maybe his bias was due to his own maleness and as God had created the male as the most dominant animal anyway he would have considered this was an equal and fair punishment.

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  10. Oucheee. Not going to poke anything there. As for the post, I can’t believe anyone even slightly falls your fishing expeditions these days. I think we all could be wrong about anything, but Christianity specifically would have to have a super duper explanation about mess of the Bible. Maybe it’s a test to sort the wheat from the chaff?

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    1. ‘Maybe it’s a test to sort the wheat from the chaff?’

      I have at times observed to theists that if the God of the Bible does exist it is hard to see that deity as being other than tricky or downright deceptive. Or to put it another way why would that deity give us a Holy book which contains so many problems, surely it is not beyond the power of that deity to give us a perfect holy book.

      And those who say that the holy books of their religions are perfect are well and truly deluded. I have given up arguing with Christians on this point as I find pointing out contradictions, historical errors, scientific errors and questionable morality are just brushed aside.

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      1. If Christianity was the only religion, it would be a sensible avenue to consider before rejection. I think some Christians in the USA often lose sight of the global religious picture, in terms of how many have developed. It’s impossible to take any one more seriously than any other. Yet they always see atheism as a rejection of the Christian gods only.

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        1. That’s because, in modern times, atheism has been for the most part a rejection of Christianity. Have you ever seen an atheist write that the Muslim god does not exist? How about that the Hindu gods do not exist?

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          1. Of course. There are atheist communities in all cultures. Muslim atheists are probably more careful about advertising it but it’s fascinating reading about groups in middle eastern countries. I’ll dig out links later.

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                1. Even if you disprove, at least in your mind, that Christianity is illogical and therefore the Christian god is an illusion…that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t exist. You may be familiar with it (Christianity) but you are not familiar with all 4,200 religions and their gods. So, why are you even an atheist?

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                2. If I may?

                  Because logic and ordinary common sense tells us that if irrefutable evidence was available for a genuine god from one of these religions it would have been produced.
                  So far …. nothing.
                  Of course, if you are aware of evidence then surely it would be beneficial to all mankind if you were to at least alert those who are not currently aware?
                  Which god had you in mind?

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                3. There is no such thing as irrefutable proof. Besides, many religions do not tout their beliefs so without one personally studying their religion how would one know?

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                4. Are you suggesting that some omniscient god of another culture was staying at home because he doesn’t like to travel?
                  Yes they don’t tout their beliefs, largely because of conquest and colonization.
                  One reason we are not all worshiping Quetzalcoatl, for example.

                  You seem to be struggling with this concept for some reason?
                  Based on evidence, all known gods are man-made, it stands to reason therefore that, unless they are exported they will remain within the culture that spawned then.

                  The Mountain sure don’t come to Mo, now does it?

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                5. There are so many religions practiced, in America for example, and you know little to nothing about them. All I hear you say is that Christianity is bah, humbug. On that we can agree. However, I never hear you say the same thing about Judaism or Islam, or Hinduism or Buddhism or any of the many other religions practiced there. Why not? Only that if there was a real god in any of those religions you would have heard about it. Even if you’re right that the gods of all religions are bogus, you still haven’t proved that a God doesn’t exist. After all, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So, strictly on logic, and logic alone, you must admit that it is possible that a God exists.

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                6. Well then, take it as a given I have the same feelings about the other Abrahamic religions, but I am more familiar with Christianity as I grew up in a Christian orientated culture.
                  And that goes for all other religions too. I have mentioned this before but you seem to have a decidedly selective memory.

                  Furthermore, I have never ever said a creator deity does not exist.
                  I am an atheist. Atheists do not beleive in gods or believe that any gods exist.
                  I hope my position is now perfectly clear?
                  All I, personally, say is generally this:
                  Based on the evidence presented so far one can dismiss all claims of there being a ”God” or gods with impunity.

                  And that is it.

                  And, once again if you have evidence to suggest this is not in fact the current state of affairs then please, I urge you to present whatever evidence you have that might cast any doubt on my current beliefs.

                  Oh, and yes , in some cases, absence of evidence can be deemed evidence of absence.

                  The ball is once more in your court.
                  What evidence do you have?

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                7. As an atheist you do not beleive in gods or believe that any gods exist. Fair enough. And yes, you have never ever said a creator deity does not exist. However, in your writings you don’t always make that point clear (that a creator deity may in fact exist). However, here’s what you do say: that the god of Christianity is a false god (I’m okay with that)…and therefore the inference is that a creator god does not exist (since what other god is there other than the Christian god). It’s not just you, you understand. Pretty much the entire atheist community in America makes the same argument. Further, many atheists started out as Christians and over time rejected their religion. Since the only god that they were exposed to in their life was a Christian god, they throw the baby out with the bathwater. That is, they reject God because they reject Christianity. It’s okay to be an atheist and it’s okay to bash religion. You’re free to believe in whatever you want. However, as the title of your post says, “What if I’m wrong?”

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                8. No, in actual fact, the inference that Yahweh is the God(sic) is only from a western-christian perspective and does not have the same meaning or emotional content to a Hindu for example.
                  I am surprised that you, being aware of so many more gods and religions than I would make such a basic and very biased mistake; if in fact it was a mistake, and you are simply being disingenuous as you so often come across?

                  The Christian god ( derived from the Abrahamic Tradition is, as we all know, Yahweh) is a narrative construct as is the metamorphosed New Testament man-god version, Jesus of Nazareth.

                  The same criteria I apply to the Abrahamic religions I apply to all the others.

                  I would of imagined the thought behind the title was plainly obvious? But then, maybe satire is not your forte?

                  I notice … again … you rather expend energy attempting to suggest my position is fallacious instead of simply providing any sort of evidence to enhance your own?
                  Is this because you realise you are merely pissing on the wind?

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                9. Of course it was satire, meaning that you were not serious when you said you might be wrong. However, I was suggesting that you are, in fact, wrong. Now do you finally get it?

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                10. And as you are suggesting I am wrong then, for once and for all, please present the evidence you have that has made you reach this conclusion.

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                11. I will go a step further, I am 100% certain there is no gods. I believe there is more evidence than all the gods in this world can provide that life may have started on Earth from alien matter delivered to Earth through a meteorite or a higher intelligent life.

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                12. “who created the higher intelligent life?” It could not be your Christian God because if he was responsible for this world, is this the best he could do for his creation? The intelligent life I speak of would be much more advanced than any gods worshipped on the planet earth.

                  The thousands of unidentified sightings speak for themselves that visitors from elsewhere in the universe have been observing us at the very least and this is far more creditable and logical than a god that has evidence to suggest it only exists within the human mind.

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                13. In the human mind, creation is a given … which is why we continue to question whether our origin was from a god, intelligent extraterrestrial beings, panspermia, etc. And then once we form an opinion on this, we continue to the next step, which is what created whatever source we have settled on.

                  My question, which I’ve asked before, is why must there always be a cause and effect? True, this theory is demonstrated in our lives, but as science progresses into quantum physics, perhaps our assumptions need to be reevaluated.

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                14. Who says there has to be a “cause”? That’s my point. Just because we happen to live in a world of cause and effect, does this make it a conclusive argument?

                  Liked by 2 people

                15. I’m offering philosophical possibilities rather than scientific theories. I mentioned quantum physics because from what I know of it, no one has yet figured out the “causes and effects” behind the actions of the particles.

                  Geez. Don’t you ever consider “what if’s”? Or are you too ensconced in “science”?

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                16. What ifs are always fun, but , of course, on a topic like this usually fruitless. I take it your “what if” is that things can happen without a cause. How would that work exactly?

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                17. I have no idea how that would “work.” I’m not even sure it would. But that isn’t my point (you seemed to have missed it twice now). Let me say again … WE live in a world of cause and effect. This is all we know. What I’m asking is what if things just “happened.” Yes, many refer to this as “poofism,” but since none of really know how everything came to be, who can unequivocally state there was a cause?

                  Of course, such an idea/theory/supposition is entirely foreign to us so it would definitely take imagination. Unfortunately (going back to my main point), because our world is made up of cause and effect, few are able to “think outside the box.”

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                18. I didn’t miss your point because you don’t seem to have anything definitive to discuss. If you are saying that things just “happen”, I’m not sure what that means. Are you saying things just randomly happen? Of course, even accidents have causes so I don’t know where this is going. Is there a point in using our imagination to create a scenario that can’t possibly be true? However, if there is even a remotely plausible scenario, I’d be interested in hearing it.

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                19. OK, I’m not going to belabor the point any longer because your question, Is there a point in using our imagination to create a scenario that can’t possibly be true? tells me you’re fixed in your world view. And that’s OK. This was just an exercise in creative thinking.

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                20. Like you said, I don’t believe that there is such a scenario, but I’m not opposed to discussing one if somebody has something interesting.

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                21. For a creator to exist, somehow something different must have happened to create life so that a creator can exist. You cannot have a creator creating a creator who creates a creator on and on can you?

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                22. Apologies. Didn’t mean to be rude, but I guess Steve, Nan and I are all on the same ”team” if you will and I would reckon they are just as interested in your answer.
                  So, while Steve is busy doing whatever he is doing, can you tell me what, or who you think created/caused intelligent life?

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                23. Yes, you will have to expand on your reply to Ark. None of us actually claims to know what caused intelligent life, however you say “intelligence” caused intelligent life if I read it correctly. So, have you contacted this intelligence? Is it male or female?

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                24. Actually,, I was expecting you to answer the same question, but you disappeared on me. Ark took your place representing the team. So, please give it a try.

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                25. But you know why…. largely because of conquest , colonization and indoctrination.
                  One only has to look at ancient cultures, especially the Romans, who exported their gods and occasionally adopted and incorporated local deities.
                  And if you fail to realise this then I am afraid you are not quite as smart as you would like to believe you are.
                  Unless of course you have evidence to the contrary…. an offer I continually extend, but one you have yet to provide a single piece of evidence for. Why is that?

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                1. It does not bother me at all and please do not make sweeping assumptions.
                  I am merely surprised you would ask such a patently obvious question.
                  I initially thought you were being somewhat rhetorical.
                  The west has been indoctrinated with the middle eastern god, Yahweh.
                  It would have been a different story if India had conquered Europe.

                  But yet again, I sense you have some hidden agenda and you are about to spring the ”read my blog” type strawman as a reason/excuse for not answering straightforward questions.
                  Of course I stand under correction ….

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              1. @chicagoja. Hello again. We chatted on your blog a bit. I have not been able to be on the blog to be part of this conversation as it was ongoing but I did read over the comments. Do I understand correctly that you believe that life was created yet you don’t believe in a god? Does that sum up your position? If not could you do that for me. Thanks. Hugs

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                1. I can only answer for why that deity is more addressed by me. That is because the followers of that religion is more likely to be interfering and harming my life and my interests. Yes the muslim’s faith of islam is also hostile to me and my interests, but they have less power and fewer numbers. I have no care what people worship as long as they are not harming others and not trying to make the legal system and laws in the image of their church doctrine. A crass way to put it is this. I feel my concern about religions is the same other people should have towards my sex life. It should be no one’s business as long as it is not harming life, it is between consenting adults, doesn’t involve children, and both groups understand they have no right to demand others do it their way, and only their way.

                  So yes I mostly talk about the christian faiths ( I write plural as there is enough difference in the denominations views of jesus to make more than one god ) and second the islamic faiths. I guess I have addressed some of the Native Peoples beliefs as I respect and like them, even if I disagree with the conclusions. I use to admire buddhism as a peaceful faith until I read they were hacking children up because they were a different faith. Seem every religious group that gets in charge or power seems to try to force their way on everyone. They will bring the people to go even if they have to kill the people to do it.

                  Does this cover it for you? Now would you answer mine please, I am trying to understand where you are attempting to go with the things you have asked and said. Be well. Hugs

                  Liked by 1 person

                2. No I live in Florida, on the west coast. So what about you? You live in Europe? So did I figure it correctly from what I read , that you believe life was created but you don’t believe in gods? Be well. Hugs

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                3. Sorry you answered that and my mind drifted to thinking you were saying something else. My goof. I will write again in a minute because I think this is very interesting position. Hugs

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                4. Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. Thanks for answering my question. I understand your views better now. I was wondering, do you feel that the universe needed a creator? Why couldn’t a non-creator action cause the universe to come into being? The big bang could have had a scientific cause we have yet to discover. I think that just because we don’t yet know the reason why it happened, doesn’t really mean that it had to be a deity. What do you think? Thanks. Hugs

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                5. You have to ask yourself what makes us human? What makes us special? Among other things, what makes us special is that we can ask questions like you just asked. In effect, we can ponder our own existence. This requires intelligence (and consciousness). There is no intelligence in things like oxygen, hydrogen etal.

                  So, could we really have really evolved as the result of a random cosmic accident from a bunch of dead chemicals?
                  Louis Pasteur proved over 100 years ago that life can only come from life. It’s called the Law of Biogenesis. Even renown atheists like George Wald and Antony Flew agreed.

                  By the way, deities are strictly for religions. We’re talking here about Intelligent Design.

                  Liked by 1 person

                6. You say “So, could we really have really evolved as the result of a random cosmic accident from a bunch of dead chemicals?”

                  As many real scientists agree that biological life could have started from random elements or life itself delivered to earth by a meteorite or alternatively life was delivered by a higher intelligent life form they are both viable arguments.

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                7. Actually, there aren’t what I would call real scientists that believe that life could have started from “random elements.” The theory that life came to Earth by meteorite; comment: It didn’t, but even following that line of reasoning that doesn’t say where or how life was created. The theory that life was delivered by a higher intelligent life form; comment – it’s a viable argument. Of course, that doesn’t say who created the higher life form. Any theories on the first cause of the creation of life?

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                8. Waiting for what, exactly?
                  We seem to be commenting at cross purposes.
                  I have already stated my answer : ”I don’t know”

                  You have stated intelligence yet so far have not expanded on this.
                  Can you please be specific and tell us what you understand by this term rather than reply in somewhat obscure terms?

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                9. This has become more than a little frustrating and I am thinking you might be being obtuse on purpose.
                  Let’s remind ourselves that it was you who popped over.

                  So, let’s see if you can put aside your asinine comments and simply answer a straight question.
                  What or who do you think is responsible for the intelligence you mentioned?

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                10. You sound so sure of yourself. How can you claim something did not happen and what do you call real scientists?

                  I do not know where or how life started, however it appears you believe you do. My theories you have seen already, therefore what do you “know” that the rest of us don’t?

                  I expect you are just an intelligent design\creationist type who thinks they know it all and like most of them will skip all the hard questions.

                  Liked by 1 person

                11. Yes, he is a proponent of ID.
                  He seems to have his own brand of pseudo creationism but because he has no evidence he will never offer a straight answer to any direct question.

                  I find his approach somewhat disingenuous, oft times smarmy and almost cloyingly condescending.

                  Liked by 1 person

                12. It may seem condescending to you, and to all those who are so arrogant with respect to their own beliefs. People don’t like admitting that they are wrong, especially intelligent people like you.

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                13. Oh, and you comments are now under moderation.However, if you lift the moderation I am under on your blog then I will do so for you, fair enough?
                  🙂

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                14. Hello chicagoja. I am not fully awake yet but I will try to make some sense. 🙂 I guess I don’t see it quite the same way you do. Which is fine as everyone can have their opinion. I do agree we have more ability to reason than other animals, but I don’t think we are all that specail. IF we had not risen to the top spot, another animal would have. In fact there may have been several who matched us for a time, but were ocean based. They have proven different ape species can understand self and self concepts. I think they did the same with Elephants also. I am OK with not knowing exactly how the big bang came about. I am ok with not understanding everything in our universe. I agree with you that there is a lot of stuff not know or understood, like dark matter and dark energy. Most of my friends say there is energy bands throughout the universe and that energy surrounds everything. They feel living things produce energy. However no one knows or can show if that energy has intelligence or reason.
                  I feel I have to make my opinions on what science can measure or test, or show a prospect of. Empirical evidence I think they call it. While I love imagination and stories and have in the past entertained the many far out questions about unknowns in the universe, I can’t base my view of what is true based on that. We can’t show evidence of being seeded here by any advanced beings, whether organic living beings or a unknown energy being. Science shows that in fact life could have started and then evolved on earth and other places in our solar system. I remember on the show Babylon Five one of the female lead characters said something like … we are the universe trying to figure itself out… the idea that the universe has become sentient. I see no evidence of that.

                  So while I can not say it did not happen by design, I have to go with the best evidence shown in the natural world, which would be that life began and then evolved on its own without any guidance or help from any other entity.

                  Thanks for the talk, it was interesting. Oh I was wondering, where do you live? My education is more self taught, how about you? Be well. Hugs

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                15. Thanks for the chat Scottie. I’m a world traveler, but born in the U.S. A. If you want to pursue the energy thing further, you can study up on quantum physics. Genetic research has come up with some pretty amazing things recently. Good luck.

                  Liked by 1 person

      2. Hello Peter. One thing I noticed about the God of the bible. For a supreme being, with all the powers it has, with all the knowledge of eternity, to know everything…………. this god seems to have the worst failings of humans, something he is said to have created to have dominion over all other creations. It is almost like the people who wrote the bible had egos so big they felt they could speak for this god, they were the greatest of everything despite beasts who had greater attributes, and they felt what we see as failings as proper god given rights. Looking at it this way, when one asks the question, ” did god create man in his image or did man create god in mans image?” the answer is really clear. It is the latter. God is not real, he is the daydream of an antisocial frustrated uneducated child who couldn’t get a date to the sheep watching show. Hugs

        Liked by 3 people

  11. “Doubting Thomas” wasn’t expected to have faith . Christ appeared to him so that he was able to place his finger in the hole of his palm. We all should be afforded the same opportunity. Until then ………………

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  12. Throughout the Old and New Testaments Yahweh and Yeshua revealed themselves repeatedly to people. From a burning bush to the top of a mountain, the Israelites clearly heard Yahweh speaking to them as they were scared sh#tless according to the texts. Jesus performed countless miracles and as I stated earlier didn’t expect Doubting Thomas to believe without proof. And now 2,000 years have passed. Nothing but crickets …………… What say the Apologists ?

    Liked by 2 people

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