Morality. No Yahweh …. no standard

Without God, morality is arbitrary. There is no objective Standard without God.

This was posted by a Christian, so the god she refers to is obviously Yahweh/Jesus.

What I would like to know is this:  How is it that, with the Christian  god, morality is not arbitrary.

Exactly what are the objective standards set by the Christian god?

Anyone – preferably either a Christian or an ex-Christian – like to explain this?

 

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140 thoughts on “Morality. No Yahweh …. no standard

  1. I have been asking this question for years. “Just what are these moral standards?” (There are none that can hold up to scrutiny having been crafted earlier than in biblical sources.) But I can’t even get an answer from most Christian apologists, Most often source the ten commandments, ironically this tends to come from Protestant Christians which claim that the NT supersedes the old. (Of course Matthew has the “not one jot or tittle” “quote” from Jesus, but worse, if the ten commandments are fair game, what about the other 600+ commandments in the OT? Are those just to be ignored?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. When I asked the question to the woman, this was the response I received:

      if you don’t understand that God–by definition–is “The Standard,” then I can’t help you. God is the Ultimate Goal. He’s the Way and the Truth and the Life.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Let me guess, a Branyan?

    Well, that astonishingly not-funny man has already admitted morality is subjective, and flexible… an evolving set of norms which today thoroughly contradict the “objective” nature of his particular god, Yhwh.

    Liked by 2 people

  3. Ark: “How is it that, with the Christian  [G]od, morality is not arbitrary?”

    God IS, was, and will always be the same. God and His word are ONE. Therefore His words are standard and must [and DOES] abide and endure forever. They are not and cannot be arbitrary, changing with whims of one’s discretion.

    It’s His words and the integrity of those words that sustains all things (the universe). As such it’s impossible for His words or morality to be arbitrary. If it were (arbitrary) this entire universe would cease to exist. You and I would cease to exist.

    Arbitrary morality can only lead to confusion and chaos. So obviously, it’s not of and can never be of God.

    The reason our world is the way it is, we’re trying to exist with arbitrary morality – not pausing long enough to even realize that the one we allow to set our ‘ever changing…umm.. evolving moral standard’ is the one we’ve effectively made our god.
    So who is your god Ark? society? the government?…?

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                1. No.
                  You clearly know very little of God and His morality, yet you consistently seek to speak for Him and to have others adhere to your incorrect definition of who He is.

                  This is why I can vehemently disagree with where you’re trying to take this conversation.

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                2. LOL.
                  John, if you want to have a conversation with me, you’ll have to do it without trying to tell me what I think or know, because that’s an impossible task for you… and in reality, it gets us nowhere.

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                3. You wrote:

                  God IS, was, and will always be the same. God and His word are ONE. Therefore His words are standard and must [and DOES] abide and endure forever. They are not and cannot be arbitrary, changing with whims of one’s discretion.

                  So, Yhwh doesn’t change his mind. Good. An aseitic being can’t change its mind, so we’re in complete agreement.

                  Yhwh commands slavery and the killing of gays, therefore slavery and the killing of gays is, in your mind and Yhwh’s, morally correct.

                  That is, of course, if you truly believe the bible to be the truthful word of your god.

                  It’s OK, you can say you support slavery and the killing of gays. I will salute your honesty and your devotion. I might not agree with it, but I can appreciate what you’re basing this moral position of yours on: the word of Yhwh as detailed in the bible. At the very least, you’re being consistent, and that is honourable.

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                4. The issue of slavery has been discussed numerous times, and your inability to understand it will not be corrected tonight.

                  There is no where in scripture where God commands the killing of gays.
                  What’s so special about gays that they must be killed as opposed to anyone else?

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                5. When and where did He change His mind on these matters.
                  To say He’s changed His mind, you must know exactly His stance on the matter to know that He has changed His mind.

                  Why did He deliver the Israelites from slavery in Egypt?

                  Give me one instance of gays being killed for being ‘gay’?

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                6. Zande, it’s interesting that you would choose to quote from the Mosaic laws … then promptly move on to cite your confusion. That’s understandable.

                  Why don’t we kill children who talk back to their parents or people who commit adultery?
                  Is it because God has changed His mind or is it because of Christ Jesus.
                  Do you have any idea what the following means: The Law was given by Moses but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ</em?

                  Christ Jesus is God in the flesh. By misunderstanding and misusing the mosaic law and its purposes you severely lack and limit your understanding of the true nature of God.

                  A goodnight to you as well.

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        1. Kia: “Maybe ancients hasn’t read the part in the ot that tells parents to stone their rebellious children?”
          How about killing witches, ancients? Or adulteresses?

          Kia, that was the exact point I made above – that we do not kill children for talking back to their parents, neither do we kill adulterers.
          Why is that Kia?
          It’s certainly not because God has changed!
          You, Zande, et al. display total lack of understanding of the very Scriptures y’all brag about reading but clearly without comprehending.

          I’ll take the time to explain to you and Zande. You’ll either understand and display it or you can both choose to continue in ignorance.

          For 2000 years, before the Mosaic laws, how did God deal with people? Hint: through grace & mercy!
          Cain killed Abel, yet God protected him and did not kill him as the Law later prescribed.
          Abraham married his half-sister; Jacob married two women – both death sentences under the Law.

          So Kia, bible scholar that you are – what happened here? Why wasn’t God imputing people’s sin to them and meting out the prescribed punishment?
          Is it because the Law was not yet given?
          A yes here would be correct.

          Now, Kia, why was the Law given?
          These exact people were living under the grace and mercy of God one day… and the very next day, they were dying for violations they’d committed (that the day prior they’d escaped punishment for). Why oh Why is this happening Kia?

          Is it because God is a covenant God and when we enter into covenant with Him we’re expected to uphold our part of the deal or face the consequences.
          These people who were living under mercy and grace took it upon themselves to say – “God, ALL that You command, we will do”. That’s a covenant Kia, incase you’re unaware. You’re expected to uphold your part, and God His part.

          So yes, during the time of the Mosaic laws people’s sins were imputed to them and they had to pay the consequences that they’d agreed to.

          As you should know Kia, today the sin debt has been paid. That’s why Jesus came. He suffered all of God’s wrath against all the sin of all of mankind.
          Hey look! Behold The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

          So going around asking the questions that you, Zande, and Ark are asking only shows a tremendous level of not understanding Scripture at all.

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          1. “Why wasn’t God imputing people’s sin to them and meting out the prescribed punishment?
            Is it because the Law was not yet given?”
            ~theancients

            If that’s the case, why did God wipe out everyone other than Noah and his immediate family in the flood?

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            1. Very good point Ron. The Bible clearly states that people were wiped out because they were wicked. Then after the flood it was noted that the people who remained descended by Noah were still wicked, so it seems God says well that did not work I better try something different.

              Even most animals were killed in the flood, were they naughty too?

              The flood story is the Bible gift that keeps on giving. It fails on multiple levels and is proof positive that the Bible cannot be literally true. The evidence against the flood is so overwhelming, yet some folk still try to pretend that it happened. To me this shows categorically that belief is not based on evidence, rather people believe and then interpret evidence based on that belief.

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            2. Ron, because people’s sin were not imputed to them, mankind became exceedingly wicked.
              Mankind had gotten so bad that his every thought and imagination was always pure evil! Furthermore, God notes that the earth was filled with violence because of man. This was a dark time for humanity. Gen 6

              So yeah, in the end, God’s judgment caught up with them.
              [For example, right now, God is not imputing our sin to us… however, that does not mean we have escaped judgment.] –This is where the believer thanks God for Christ Jesus.

              And being the just and merciful God that He is… He didn’t judge them without warning and providing a way of escape for them – you should take note of this.

              For 120 years Noah told the people to repent of their wickedness and take refuge in the ark.
              Can you guess how many took him seriously and obeyed.

              I guess they, like too many today (because they do not honor their words) do not expect God to honor His. Big Mistake.

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              1. theancients,

                Again, where is the justice in punishing people for violating commandments issued centuries after their demise? And how did you determine that Noah told the people to repent? Or for 120 years? Genesis 6:9-22 informs us that Noah’s sons already had wives when God instructed him to build the ark, and Gen. 11:10 states that Shem—his eldest son—was 100 years old two years after the flood; which means the construction period couldn’t have lasted more than 85 years—and that’s assuming his sons married in their early teens.

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                1. How do you know they violated commandments issued centuries after their demise?

                  How did Joseph know that adultery was a sin against God?

                  I determined Noah warned the people because Noah is referred to as a ‘preacher of righteousness’. It’s difficult to imagine a person of that character not doing what comes naturally to him.
                  Further Book of Jasher gives more information on what took place during this time.

                  It’s impossible for no one to have seen Noah building the ark… but they were more or less like you – scornful, prideful.

                  Know what else the Scripture says – the coming of Christ will be like the days of Noah.
                  It came as a surprise to them – not because people weren’t told… they chose to ignore, to scorn, mock and ridicule.

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                2. Well, we won’t travel down the morality road today.
                  But you do realize how incredibly odd it is for a materialist/atheist to speak on morality.
                  Why should I care about your opinion?
                  Furthermore, you should report me to the police or whatever other authority you wish.

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                3. You should not care about my opinion and it is your absolute right to believe what ever you want to, and I respect that right. And providing you extend exactly the same respect and right to children then there is no problem.
                  So… believe away, ancients. Believe away.

                  Liked by 1 person

                4. theancients,

                  How do I know they violated commandments issued centuries after their demise? I don’t. I’m simply following the historical timeline of the Genesis/Exodus accounts claiming Moses received the commandments long after the alleged flood. Is that timeline incorrect?

                  The Book of Jasher (5:33-34) also claims that 595-year-old Noah built the ark by himself in five years. That’s an amazing feat given that Ken Ham’ $100 million replica of the ark in Kentucky supposedly required the services of over 100 skilled tradesman utilizing modern industrial equipment to fell, cut, rip, notch, plane and assemble 3.3 million board feet of wood with 95 tons of metal plates and bolts. Ham’s ark also utilizes 64 timbers measuring 50 feet long by 36 inches in diameter. The Bible says Noah used some mysterious “gopher wood” (go for wood? – lol) to build his ark; but as a rough comparison, kiln-dried northern white cedar (the least dense wood that’s suitable for shipbuilding) possessing those dimensions weighs roughly 11,000 lb (5.5 tons). Imagine a 600-year-old-man and his three octogenarian sons schlepping, lifting and fastening 64 of those all by themselves (“Oy vey! My aching back!!!”) to the accompaniment of jeering onlookers, and you can see why some of us might be just a wee bit skeptical about the veracity of this historical tall tale.

                  Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi, Ancients.
      Thanks for stopping by.
      If we are to consider that your god is the standard of morality, and you beleive that, ”Arbitrary morality can only lead to confusion and chaos. So obviously, it’s not of and can never be of God.”
      Fair enough. Therefore,
      Can you give me an example of a situation where it would be morally acceptable for a rape victim to be forced to live with (marry) the man who raped her for the rest of her life?

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          1. By loving God, and loving the person I come across daily as I love myself, I am fulfilling the 10 (which is basically an expansion of the 2).
            The 10 is all about our relationship with God and people.
            If I love and honor God, I will not steal, lie etc. because I know He’s my provider. If I love my neighbor, I will not covet his things etc.

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                1. That’s correct Ark. For the person who has made Jesus their Lord and Savior, they’re not under the Law but under grace.
                  ie.
                  God does not impute my sin to me. Not only that but He has imputed Jesus’ righteousness to me!
                  How amazing is that!

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                2. That’s correct Ark. The Law stands. Yahweh has not changed His mind.
                  However, no one could keep the Law.

                  Some of the things the Scripture says about the Law:
                  • The Law strengthened sin (1 Cor. 15:56).
                  • The Law was a ministry of death and condemnation (2 Cor. 3:7 and 9).
                  • The Law gave guilt and knowledge of sin, not salvation (Rom. 3:19-20).
                  • The Law made sin come alive, and killed us (Rom. 7:9).
                  • The Law magnified sin and produced hopelessness (Rom. 7:13-25

                  Why would God give us something with all these negative effects? It was because we were already beaten by sin and didn’t know it. Before we could be motivated to receive God’s gift of salvation by grace through faith in a Savior, we needed to be convinced that we couldn’t save ourselves.
                  So, the Lord revealed His standard of holiness (the Law), which was infinitely higher than any of us could ever attain. We had to come to the end of ourselves before we could begin to find God. The Law was perfectly suited to do that. It shut us up to faith so the only way we could look was up (i.e. to Jesus).
                  the Law gave such a perfect standard of performance that those who understood it clearly saw that they could never be good enough to receive anything from God. It took away any deception that God owed us anything, and it made us throw ourselves on God for mercy. That’s BIG, and that’s what the Law was intended to do.
                  A proper use of the Law drives us to God for mercy and not away from God in guilt and condemnation. Once we come to Jesus and receive salvation as a gift, we are no longer under the Law but under grace.

                  And that’s the gospel Ark.

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                3. I am not operating under the Mosaic covenant. I’m not even Jewish.
                  Your argument is redundant Ark!

                  Why would any sensible person try to fulfill/do something that Jesus Himself fulfilled/did on their behalf.

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                4. God is my judge Ark!
                  I stand under His judgement. I don’t stand in judgement over Him. That would make me god 😦

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                5. I understood your question well enough.
                  I answered it.
                  It may not be the answer you’re looking for, but it’s my answer.

                  You can choose to live your life in judgement of God… that’s your prerogative.

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                6. It is not a question of not being the answer I am looking for, you are simply not answering the question.
                  Are you afraid to tell me on what basis do you judge your god to be good?

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                7. No, not afraid.
                  I answered your question. God is my judge and my God!… and yours too 🙂

                  I am under His judgement. I don’t stand in judgement over Him. That would be dumb.

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                8. Our Lord Jesus, in answering another who had some of your traits had this little gem: Why call Me good. There is none good but God.
                  Hint: this man had some sense to call Jesus ‘good Master’… but not enough to call Him God.
                  God is good, because the one who knows the Father reveals Him as a good, good Father!
                  So there’s my simple answer to you Ark.
                  Only God is good!
                  Scripture reveals God’s nature to us. And the goodness of God is demonstrated in His nature.

                  I gave you the passages in another comment that really answered this question.

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                9. Scripture reveals God’s nature to us. And the goodness of God is demonstrated in His nature.

                  Thank you.

                  And the Old Testament is evidence of his nature, yes?

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                10. Yes. I already quoted to you numerous verses from Psalms etc. that shows goodness is grounded in God’s nature.

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                11. I already knew this would be your response. Which is quite odd, since you’ve spent all morning arguing with me about Mosaic Law/Covenant.

                  Things that make you go hmmm…. 🙂

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                12. The point of the post was to show how fallacious the belief that;
                  ”There is no objective Standard without God.”

                  Every comment you have made so far … and continue to make …. demonstrates that it is fallacious.

                  And I knew you were expecting this answer.
                  I have come to know indoctrinated Christians too well.
                  As do the majority of my readers, many of whom are former Christians and some indoctrinated fundamentalists like yourself..

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                13. You certainly haven’t succeeded in demonstrating this is a false belief.

                  As a matter of fact, I know it’s impossible for you to establish or demonstrate any objective standard without God. Simply IMPOSSIBLE!

                  A smart person would figure this out by now.

                  There is no such thing as a former Christian. A person who is born cannot be unborn – that’s impossible!

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                14. Smile… well if nothing else, you have demonstrated your indoctrinated fundamentalist bona fides and rank ignorance of archaeology.
                  I shall gladly hand you over to those no-such-things-as-former- Christians and go watch a movie while keeping an amused eye from the sidelines.
                  Thank you for playing.
                  You made me laugh and that cannot be a bad thing.

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        1. Fair enough. But please answer the question. Do you think that there is any situation that YOU would consider morally acceptable for a rape victim to be obliged to become the wife of the man who raped her.

          It is a simply straightforward question.

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              1. I am sure there are Christians who were: you name it – they were once it.

                Now, through and by the grace of Christ Jesus, they’re no longer who they used to be.
                That’s what grace does, Ark. When one is sorry for what they’ve done, they need not feel condemned or shameful about it, because Jesus took that sin, shame and condemnation upon Himself and gave us His righteousness (His obedience) instead.

                That’s why the gospel is so powerful Ark. It’s not about what you and I have done or haven’t done. It’s not about our moral standing. It’s about Jesus’ moral standing. It’s about what He has done on our behalf.

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                1. Once again, you seem hell bent on not answering a simple direct question.

                  So for the final time.

                  Do you think that the Mosaic Law governing the forced marriage between rapist and victim to be moral?
                  Yes or no?

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                2. I did not enter into the Mosaic covenant (didn’t even exist at the time), and will not place myself under a covenant I did not enter into just to provide you (who cares nothing for God nor the things of God) with a response that you deem to be or not to be an answer.
                  That’s my final response on this question.

                  You want to talk about God and the nature of God… try to understand the covenants, and their purposes.
                  What’s my current covenant with God?

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                3. Thank you. That’s really all I needed to read.
                  Those following along can be the judge of your responses.

                  I have no idea whichversion of the ”New Covenant” (sic) you adhere to.
                  What seems to be glaringly apparent is that you appear to demonstrate the typical behaviour of one who is thoroughly indoctrinated.

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  4. People who claim the Bible sets objective standards for morality are reading the book through an inerrancy prism. This is a brilliant clip from the West Wing TV show that demonstrates the point, takes a little while to get going but is worth persevereing with:

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      1. I don’t think he should start a blog. Just like that bird we lost, he shares a lot on different blogs that if he were to start his blog would, in my view, limit him. I hope he disagrees with me

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  5. Arbitrary… like thou shalt not kill.. but if I say take your son, your only son, and offer him as a sacrifice?… nah, lol.mi was just kidding. Just wanted to see if you would do it… if I told you to.
    Divine command is arbitrary by definition

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  6. Ark, could you ask your Christians whether a thing is good because God commands it or god commands it because it is good?
    Could they give an example of an objective moral and with supporting justification.

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    1. What is the nature of God. God is good. God is love. Love and goodness are the very essence of God.

      God is certainly not arbitrary in His moral actions, nor is God subject to some external standard of morality that governs His decisions…God isn’t arbitrarily deciding what is good and what is evil on a whim. Rather, it is God’s nature to do good, and God never acts contrary to His nature.
      …the ground of morality is God’s nature and not some external standard to which God must adhere. God’s sovereignty is preserved as well as an objective standard for morality, i.e., God’s nature.

      The Scriptures, God’s self-revelation to humanity, illustrates this quite nicely. A sampling of passages that demonstrate that goodness is grounded in God’s nature:

      • Good and upright is the LORD; therefore he instructs sinners in the way (Psalm 25:8).
      • Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him (Psalm 34:8).
      • For you, O Lord, are good and forgiving, abounding in steadfast love to all who call upon you (Psalm 86:5).
      • For the LORD is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations (Psalm 100:5).
      • Oh give thanks to the LORD, for he is good, for his steadfast love endures forever! (Psalm 107:1).

      God commands certain actions as good and therefore to be done and forbids certain other actions as evil and therefore not to be done. What is good is not good simply because God commands it. It is good because it is reflective of His divine nature.

      -gotquestions.org

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      1. I am curious, ancients.
        You have read the post and the quote from the lady who claims that the bible isn’t her (your ) god etc.
        Do you agree or disagree with her statement?

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        1. I read the post Ark. I didn’t read that particular part.
          If she says the Bible isn’t her God, she is 100% correct.
          The Bible is God’s revelation to us. The Bible is not and cannot be God. If you burned the Bible, God is not burned or cease to exist.
          She’s correct Ark, the Bible is not God!

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          1. It is in part two.( the next post).
            I don’t think you are going to succeed by trying to win a game of semantics.
            If it is your god’s revelation then it is, technically the word of god and thus representative of your god.
            Without the bible you would have absolutely no knowledge of your god, Yahweh.

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            1. That’s not semantics. That’s the truth.

              If you want to know what the Word of God is – look to Jesus.
              In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word IS God.

              The Bible reveals the nature of God to us. To say the Bible is God is incorrect!
              I do not praise and worship my Bible.
              There are billions of Bible in circulation. There is only ONE God.

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              1. I don’t know of anyone who worships the bible – though I concede, some might – but it is still considered the word of your god, inspired or literal.
                It most certainly isn’t considered fiction by believers.
                Thus, as Peter noted in the next post;
                ”A person who claims that ‘God’ is the basis of objective morality who then tries to distance themselves from the only objective revelation they claim ‘God’ provided has by default lost their argument. That they can’t see this shows that they lack critical thinking skills.”

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                1. So, if one doesn’t worship their bible, then said bible cannot and is not God.
                  You’re the one trying to equate God as the Bible.
                  For example: God IS love. Love is NOT God.
                  It’s that simple.

                  I read Peter’s bit of foolishness!
                  As I went to great lengths to explain this morning (obviously not understood by any of you guys)… God deals with us through covenants.
                  For 2000 years, he dealt with mankind through grace and mercy.
                  The Mosaic covenant was one entered into by the Israelites at Sinai.
                  Not understanding the different covenants and how and why they were entered into makes your (the collective all of you) arguments redundant.
                  Simply, you’re asking for explanations of things you don’t understand – and do not care to understand.

                  So relay to Peter, he’s the one lacking in critical thinking skills, as he seeks for explanations of things he clearly doesn’t understand.
                  How would he even know when his question has been answered.

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                2. Hi Ancients, for what it is worth I am aware of the various Biblical Covenants. Some dispute the number but it is generally agreed that they include those with:
                  – Noah (on behalf of all life on earth);
                  – Abraham
                  – Moses
                  – David
                  – the New Testament, New Covenant.

                  If I had concluded that the Bible was divinely inspired then these might mean something, but I have concluded the Bible is of human not divine origin so they are, in my view, myths and fables.

                  I admit I could be wrong, but my position was not one I lightly adopted given the personal cost it involved, it has been reached after much consideration. But hey perhaps I am deluded and lack critical thinking skills as you suggest. But then again according to the Apostle Paul the Christian religion is best suited to the ignorant and unlearned rather than the wise and educated.

                  Lest you think I am satisfied to shut myself off from Christian thinking I am presently reading Dr Martyn Lloyd-Jones’ book entitled, ‘Studies on the Sermon on the Mount’.

                  Liked by 1 person

              1. Are you saying or implying that before Scripture was written down, people had no knowledge of God [Yahweh Elohim]?
                There is such a thing called oral tradition.

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                1. …the oldest Biblical text found is about 2700 years old. Of course, this is just what we’ve been able to locate and date. The first Biblical stories were passed down orally and only written down later by various authors. Most Biblical scholars believe the Book of Genesis was the first book to be written down. This would have happened around 1450 BC to 1400 BC. So perhaps about 3400 years or so ago…

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                2. The author of the Book of Genesis is not identified. Traditionally, the author has always assumed to have been Moses. There is no conclusive reason to deny the Mosaic authorship of Genesis.

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                3. We can discuss Sam Vimes if you like?
                  He is a Terry Pratchett character.
                  Also a work of fiction.

                  That you believe he is an historical figure flies in the face of all genuine (current) archaeology and serious biblical scholarship.
                  I discount inerrantists, of course, unless you know of any evidence to support such a claim?

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                4. I already know your lines Ark – false and redundant 🙂

                  Weak archaeological evidence for the Exodus combined with moderately strong evidence for the conquest renders your little “pronouncement of fiction”…fictitious!

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                5. lol…yes, William Dever and Israel Finkelstein and almost the entirety of the archaeological field…. vs… an indoctrinated fundamentalist who likely is also a Creationist.
                  Who do you truly beleive any normal person would side with?
                  Go on … have a guess.

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                6. Only if one is free from coercion( and able to apply critical thinking) to make them, otherwise is it really a choice?
                  How much choice do you seriously consider you have as an indoctrinated fundamentalist Christian?
                  More the point, how much choice does an indoctrinated child have?

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                7. So, the person who has the freedom to choose wrong or right is complaining – not about the choices, though that’s how he frames it. He’s really complaining because he loathes the fact he want’s to choose wrong but without the consequences of choosing the wrong thing. HAHA
                  Dream on whippersnapper…at least you act like one 🙂

                  As a Christian, I have the ability to make the same choices as anyone else. I can choose light or I can choose darkness and God will honor whatever I choose… the same way He honors whatever you or any other person on this earth chooses.

                  So what’s your problem? You always have a choice. You just have to be mature enough to know to choose wisely.

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                8. Not in the least.
                  You fail to grasp the core of your dilemma.
                  If you do not indoctrinate each successive generation then your religion will die out, as have thousands before.
                  In fact, Christianity is dying out as can be witnessed by the most socially progressive and stable countries.
                  In Iceland, for example, the percentage of people 24 and under who believe in your god is currently zero.
                  That is 0%.
                  If one accepts that this is the prime group that will produce children just how many of their offspring do you honestly think will believe in your god … or any god for that matter?
                  The likelihood is high that within two generations at the most, the entire population of Iceland will be non-believers.
                  And not through force or violence, but because of respect for the individual and critical thinking.
                  Take a moment to consider that.

                  While countries where religious worship was previously curtailed – China comes to mind -there will be a large upswing in (Christian) belief, especially as missionaries rush to convert, but as we have seen with all socially advanced nations, the more stable they become the less religious they are.

                  And this is all based on freedom of choice, especially where the child is afforded the same respect as the adult in this regard.
                  So, please, get religions into schools and teach them all to kids. I am serious.
                  Teaching the children about religion(s) is the very best way to create non-believers fast.

                  Liked by 1 person

                9. I smile at your response Ark 🙂
                  Some parts are lol funny – Christianity is dying out…. Well, a guy can hope and dream… huh… dream on friend.

                  The other parts I’m not smiling at… all you’ve done is confirmed Isaiah 5, … hell (created for the devil and his angels) has had to enlarge itself for the wicked – who have foolishly chosen darkness over light.

                  See, “This is the crisis we’re in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure…

                  Which is better Ark, a life spent among a million responsible, dedicated, highly trained individuals fully submitted to their King… or one spent with 10 million self-centered, unruly, rebellious individuals submitted only to themselves?

                  Like

                10. I smile at your response Ark 🙂
                  Some parts are lol funny – Christianity is dying out…. Well, a guy can hope and dream… huh… dream on friend.

                  Christianity is dying out. I did not say it was dying out quickly, although the process has definitely accelerated now that we have a lot more access to information via the Internet.
                  And the statistics, while not carved in stone indicate this process is taking place.

                  The other parts I’m not smiling at… all you’ve done is confirmed Isaiah 5, … hell (created for the devil and his angels) has had to enlarge itself for the wicked – who have foolishly chosen darkness over light.

                  You quote nonsensical scripture to an atheist? That’s what I call brave and thoroughly idiotic at the same time.
                  But you go ahead… if it’s all you’ve got what is there for me to be concerned about?
                  It is a bit like pissing in the wind. It will blow back in your face, Ancients.

                  See, “This is the crisis we’re in: God-light streamed into the world, but men and women everywhere ran for the darkness. They went for the darkness because they were not really interested in pleasing God. Everyone who makes a practice of doing evil, addicted to denial and illusion, hates God-light and won’t come near it, fearing a painful exposure…

                  You believe atheists hate something they have no belief in?
                  Oh, well … I suppose some atheists may hate Yahweh. By the same token they may also hate Micky Mouse, Days of our Lives and Benny Hinn. Ooops … no, sorry, he’s real isn’t he? Is he?

                  Which is better Ark, a life spent among a million responsible, dedicated, highly trained individuals fully submitted to their King… or one spent with 10 million self-centered, unruly, rebellious individuals submitted only to themselves?

                  Highly dedicated? Responsible? Fully Submitted? Are you suggesting I become a Muslim?

                  Like

  7. Please answer the question, ancients without trying to inject a spin.
    Do you think that there is any situation that YOU would consider morally acceptable for a rape victim to be obliged to become the wife of the man who raped her.

    Yes or no?

    Like

  8. A good question I would like to see answered by ‘the ancients’ or any other Christian is this:

    Let’s say a leader of a society of humans comes to me to study their society to try and maximize their chance of survival. One of the first things I observe is that, murder is for whatever reason allowable. There are no laws or religious commandments against it. And so as a result people murder whenever the mood strikes, without consequence. What would happen to such a society, and as a scientist studying am I likely to conclude, based on the evidence, that murder is not good for the society? Is this something that God needs to command in order for an outside observer, or even many who are in the society to notice that murder seems to be causing more disorder and harm? And if I can conclude that allowing murder is destructive to the survival and well being of the people, why do I need God to command it at all?

    Liked by 1 person

          1. Are you keep tabs on it? lol How am I doing?! She knows a lot of smart person language, but she is a master of moving the goal posts, and seems to not be able to grasp the importance of the veracity of premises before making conclusions. lol

            Liked by 1 person

            1. Oh, yes… watching a movie but smiling along with you.
              I am actually surprised she hasn’t already pulled the plug.
              She not only almost always moves the goalposts, but she will pretty soon steal the ball … count on it.

              Liked by 1 person

                1. She also rather ”likes” David Wood. He that bludgeoned his old man with a hammer …. ‘cos he wanted to … and then found god and became a minister or something and now does Apologetics.

                  Do you sense a rather weird affinity?

                  Liked by 1 person

                1. Yes, I did, thanks. It was a western… Jane got a gun. Bit cheesy but reasonable as far as Westerns go.

                  Just read through the entire thread. I left a message for Amanda but I think she went to the burn unit.

                  Liked by 1 person

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